Berserk Gorilla Vs. Final Attack Order

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Raigekick

New Member
I just realize something about Final Attack Order helping Berserk Gorilla.

Assume Player A has a set "Berserk Gorilla" and an active "Final Attack Order".
Player B has a ATK pos "Gemini Elf"

If Player B attacks the set Berserk Gorilla, the Gorilla will flip up, then FAO will set it to ATK position: I think this is how it will work:

Damage Step:Sub-step 2: Berserk is flipped face up, then Final Attack Order force it into ATK pos.
Damage Step:Sub-step 3: Calculate damage: Berserk=2000, Elf=1900, damage to Player B is 100 LP
Damage Step:Sub-step 4: Apply damage: Player B looses 100 LP and Gemini Elf is destroyed.
Damage Step:Sub-step 5: Resolve effect: Berserk is in ATK possition, so it's Trigger Effect won't activate.
Damage Step:Sub-step 6: Gemini Elf is sent to the GY.

I'm not entirely sure if sub-step 5 is correct for Berserk Gorilla. Is this the correct ruling?
 
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Dlanaan said:
My assumption would be that after BG is flipped face-up (during Step 2), BG will trigger. It won't resolve until Step 5.
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So it's chain block is lingering somewhere until Sub-step 5? For some reason, that just doesn't seems right.
 
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Dlanaan said:
My assumption would be that after BG is flipped face-up (during Step 2), BG will trigger. It won't resolve until Step 5.
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I would definately agree, considering the Thunder Nyan Nyan and Spirit Reaper rulings, it should be destroyed instantly after Damage Calculation.

However, this might have to be re-evaluated, considering Divine Wrath seems to be changing the rules a bit. If the defender is to be destroyed by Divine Wrath prior to Damage Calculation, when is it destroyed? What about the attacker?

Honestly, my feeling on this is that effects like these should be resolved in a similar manner as Sasuke Samurai, and simply halt the attack, and no Replay is awarded. As long as it is the beginning of the Damage Step (the first 2 steps).

The only time where you would be forced to complete Damage Calculation would be once you enter it in Step 3.

Just my thoughts
 
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Raigekick said:
So it's chain block is lingering somewhere until Sub-step 5? For some reason, that just doesn't seems right.
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It not a Trigger, its a condition that is resolved continuously, no chaining here. It would be applied instantly after DC.

Similar to the Thunder Nyan Nyan rulings, thats when it would be done.

There are actually quite a few rulings for Berserk Gorilla to help here:

"If a face-down "Berserk Gorilla" is attacked and flipped face-up, it's destroyed after damage calculation."

So its destroyed after DC. Having FAO active at the time doesn't change the existance of him first being in DEF position.

"If "Final Attack Orders" and "Berserk Gorilla" are both on the field, and the opponent targets "Berserk Gorilla" with "Ring of Destruction", and you chain "Zero Gravity", "Berserk Gorilla" is destroyed in the middle of the chain due to "Zero Gravity"'s effect, and "Ring of Destruction"'s effect disappears."

As you can see its continuous, not a Trigger.
 
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novastar said:
It not a Trigger, its a condition that is resolved continuously, no chaining here. It would be applied instantly after DC.
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That is what I thought it was in the beginning, that it is a continuous effect. But if it is indeed a continuous effect, then it should have been destroyed when it got flipped face up in Damage Step:sub-step 2 because continuous effect activates and resolves on this sub-step. But it does not. It gets destroyed in Damage Step:sub-step 5 where Flip and Trigger effect activates and resolves.

novastar said:
Similar to the Thunder Nyan Nyan rulings, thats when it would be done.

There are actually quite a few rulings for Berserk Gorilla to help here:

"If a face-down "Berserk Gorilla" is attacked and flipped face-up, it's destroyed after damage calculation."
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This is saying that Berserk Gorilla is a Trigger Effect because it triggers in Damage Step:sub-step 5. If it were a Continuous Effect, then it should activate in Damage Step:sub-step 2.

novastar said:
So its destroyed after DC. Having FAO active at the time doesn't change the existance of him first being in DEF position.

"If "Final Attack Orders" and "Berserk Gorilla" are both on the field, and the opponent targets "Berserk Gorilla" with "Ring of Destruction", and you chain "Zero Gravity", "Berserk Gorilla" is destroyed in the middle of the chain due to "Zero Gravity"'s effect, and "Ring of Destruction"'s effect disappears."

As you can see its continuous, not a Trigger.
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NOW, this is saying that Berserk Gorilla is in fact a Continuous Effect, so why does it not get destroyed in Damage Step:sub-step 2.

This is making my head hurts. :) My main dilema is why does Berserk Gorilla not get destroyed in Damage Step:sub-step 2 when it get flipped face up since it is a continuous effect, and continuous effect activates and resolves in this sub-step.
 
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Raigekick said:
I think I understand why, with the help of Spirit Reaper's ruling:

If you look at the Monster Destroyed in Damage Step other than Battle thread, you will see that Spirit Reaper holds it's Continuous Effect until after Damage Calculation.

This is very interesting in the Game Mechanic in Damage Step because it is very selective on where a Continuous Effect will resolve. I will update my Battle Phase article to reflect this.
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It a simple idea.

In general once you flip the defender face-up, the attack will conclude and damage is calculated...regardless of a destruction effect trigger or continuous.

It is NOT that continuous effects wait until after DC to resolve...it is specifically an effect that would somehow destroy the defender.
 
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novastar said:
It a simple idea.

In general once you flip the defender face-up, the attack will conclude and damage is calculated...regardless of a destruction effect trigger or continuous.

It is NOT that continuous effects wait until after DC to resolve...it is specifically an effect that would somehow destroy the defender.
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Not really, "The Agent of Force - Mars"'s continuous effect will activate and resolve BEFORE damage calculation.
 
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Raigekick said:
Not really, "The Agent of Force - Mars"'s continuous effect will activate and resolve BEFORE damage calculation.
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Ok firstly...and i feel like i just have to keep saying this over and over again...Continuous Effects never "activate" they are simply turned on or off. This is NOT the same as "activating" or "activation" as you cannot chain to it.

Secondly, i think you must have misunderstood me....

This is a special provision being made for Berserk Gorilla, Spirit Reaper or Thunder Nyan Nyan etc.

Why you ask? ...because thier effects are "destruction" effects that would otherwise destroy them while they are defending. To avoid them from being destroyed...they (Konami) chose to have them applies after DC. You still cannot chain to it at all...it simply immediatly occers after DC is over...before Triggers are placed on the chain...similar to Dark Ruler's effect.

Agent of Force has no such "destruction" effect, it has 2 continuous effects that are turned on right away as soon as it is face-up. That is why you do not wait.
 
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novastar said:
Ok firstly...and i feel like i just have to keep saying this over and over again...Continuous Effects never "activate" they are simply turned on or off. This is NOT the same as "activating" or "activation" as you cannot chain to it.
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Ok. Got it. From now on it will just be "Active" or "On". Thanks.

novastar said:
This is a special provision being made for Berserk Gorilla, Spirit Reaper or Thunder Nyan Nyan etc.

Why you ask? ...because thier effects are "destruction" effects that would otherwise destroy them while they are defending. To avoid them from being destroyed...they (Konami) chose to have them applies after DC. You still cannot chain to it at all...it simply immediatly occers after DC is over...before Triggers are placed on the chain...similar to Dark Ruler's effect.

Agent of Force has no such "destruction" effect, it has 2 continuous effects that are turned on right away as soon as it is face-up. That is why you do not wait.
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I get it now. If the Continuous Effect has something to do with destroying monsters, it will resolve in Sub-step 5.

Thanks for the enlightenment.
 
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Always happy to help. Of course it is a theory based on the rulings i've seen, it seems to be directed towards destruction effects of this nature (continuous/conditions).

I hope you didn't take what i said the wrong way, i only aim to help understanding. I know you like to know the "why" so its good to be accurate in terminology and wording.

There is also a good example with [Rivalry of Warlords] as well.

Similar to [Thunder Nyan Nyan], if a different Type is attacked and turned face-up, you would wait until after Damage Calculation before destroying it (provided that it survived the attack).

btw, your Battle Phase article is quite good, even UDE could learn from your model, and make something similar...

;)
 
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