Book of Moon Question

I'll back up one step really quick and say that you are allowed one manual position change per turn. A manual position change is defined as face down defense to face up attack (flip summon) or face up attack to face down defense (such as the Guardian Sphinx effect).

Now, if your monster was in face up attack and you used Book of Moon, you would have used its manual position change for the turn and could not flip it face up again.

However, if your monster was in face up defense position and you used Book of Moon, this would NOT count as a position change and you would be allowed to flip it into face up attack during your main phase one.

This is why you can flip summon Guardian Sphinx, in main phase one, attack, and flip him down in main phase two, but you cannot flip him down in main phase 1 and then flip summon him again in the same turn.

Naturally, if you had a Book of Taiyou, you would be able to flip the monster again though its effect.

I know, a little long winded, but this is a popular concept often hard to grasp. Hope this helps!
 
Dillie-O said:
I'll back up one step really quick and say that you are allowed one manual position change per turn. A manual position change is defined as face down defense to face up attack (flip summon) or face up attack to face down defense (such as the Guardian Sphinx effect).
The use on Guardian Sphinx's effect is not a manual battle position change. A manual position change is 1. face down defense --> face up attack or 2. face up attack --> face up defense. There is no way to change a monster from face up to face down (in any position) except by an effect change.

The easiest way to remember the whole position change thing is like this:

You are allowed one manual position change per turn, but only if the manual position change is the first position change to occur that turn.

You cannot manually change the battle position of a monster if it has:

1. Been summoned on the same turn.
2. Been manually changed already
3. Been changed by an effect such as Book of Moon, or by its own effect, such as Guardian Sphinx.

Also, it is very important to recognize that "battle position" only refers to the card's vertical/horizontal orientation. Battle position does not regard whether a card is face up or down at all. This causes much confusion. But if you remember that a "battle position" change is only counted when a card is moved from vertical to horizontal or vice versa it becomes clear.

This is why you can Book of Moon a monster in face up defense position into face down defense position and still flip summon it. It went from face up horizontal to face down horizontal...it's actual orientation never changed so you are still able to perform a manual battle position (orientation) change to face up vertical if you choose.
 
Oh man, here we go with this question again...

There's a closed thread all about this topic, pretty much, it's good reading, and I recommend it to everyone. I'm still fighting the good fight, myself. I've forwarded to about every source I know, but it will probably get ignored, lol, since I have no credentials.

All I can say, is if the same Japanese company releases the card game and makes the rules, and releases the same game in computerized form, yet they play some cards entirely differently, even if they've been out forever, then they really gotta get some better communication going. Yes, yes, video games are not a good source to get rules from, obviously, but when an issue like this, which gets more and more common the more cards are printed, is very very commonly misplayed, there needs to be something about the issue addressed. They've had years now to get certain rules fixed that would be wrong in their games, you'd just think more communication would happen. That's it for my comment, not starting anything here at all, most importantly listen to these judges and play these cards by the way they say for now, it's the most official response you'll get, short of stalking the game developers or something. They do a great job at what they do. :)

Call this my one little YGO passion to get corrected, one direction or the other. This is probably the one "game mechanic" I've seen and heard of being misplayed of the most all over the world.
 
Thanks JDos. I was trying to think of the best way to handle the order of the changes. Having the manual change be the first thing allowed is a great way of putting it.
 
CraniumX said:
...snipped for the sake of brevity...
Well, there have been long standing differences in the OCG and the TCG (i.e. Necrofear until recently), but also remember that just because the Japanese play a certain card a certain way, doesn't make it right all the time. The whole argument over Hallowed Life Barrier comes to mind. The JERP and most OCG players insist that it protects your monsters like a super Waboku, but Kevin Tewart insists that it was Konami themselves that dictated the ruling and English text for HLB and that it does NOT protect the monster. So, who's right?

As far as video games...I was all set to finally go buy Dawn of Destiny for Xbox after renting it and getting an Action Replay save with all cards...but then I played Mirage of Nightmare & the fun ensues...

1. I set my hand and play Mirage.
2. I draw my cards and get an MST. Opponent ends turn.
3. I draw and am immediately sent into Standby with no opportunity to play MST. I discard my hand.
4. I end turn.
5. I draw cards for Mirage.
6. Opponent Heavy Storms and kills Mirage with me still having 4 cards in hand. Woohoo, lucky me!!
7. Opponent ends turn.
8. I draw and am immediately sent into Standby again.
9. Here's the kicker...the game forced me to discard my hand even though Mirage was not even on the field! wtf?!?!?!

So I guess I'm supposed to infer that based on Dawn of Destiny no matter what happens to Mirage, you still have to discard if you draw cards. If that's the case, then you have a far bigger issue on your hands than how Book of Moon is played in relation to manual battle position changes.

The simple fact is, the video games can be useful for a beginner to learn some aspects of the game, but they are no more accurate than the Anime when it comes to answering ruling questions.

UDE says that you cannot make a manual change if the battle position has been changed for any reason already in that turn. That's what it is until they say otherwise.
 
jdos said:
UDE says that you cannot make a manual change if the battle position has been changed for any reason already in that turn. That's what it is until they say otherwise.

Oh yes, I quite understand this, and the whole deal behind the Hallowed Life Barrier arguement. We do get the cards printed over here after Japan, and they're supposed to be corrected and erratta'd as necessary, and my understand is that in Japan, the card text is suposed to be wrong on Hallowed Life Barrier, and correctly printed over here. Which is one of the points I'm trying to figure out, does Japan not release card errata or something, if this is the case, and the card was misprinted over there?

I have no qualms at all about following these rules, or any others, that I've heard here, it was the whole reason I came here in the first place. I live in the middle of nowhere, so I have to travel miles and miles just to play actual human beings, or use an online program obviously. Sometimes the only practice I get is the video games. If I had the opportunity, I'd love to sit down and just watch people play with all different deck types for hours, if not days at a time, just to even see what they do. I've been playing games since I was 3. I can be entertained for hours just watching people play, even if I do nothing myself. :)

The main issue I've been addressing here, is not really the fact of a card text, but more along the lines of an entire game mechanic. The position change by an effect, and the manual position change. It seems highly disturbing to me that two different parts of the world would play a mechanic entirely different, so I'm hoping to bring awareness of this up, and perhaps get it changed for either the US, or for Japan (if they do indeed play the mechanic differently). I firmly believe in as much information as possible being available to the public, and I also feel like a teacher many times, my 13 year old brother, some of his friends, and my 24 year old friend. That's what I definitely do not want to teach them improper ways of playing the game, yet when there's so many sources out there (games, other players and even judges, reports on certain tournaments, etc.) that play this mechanic differently than the way it's supposed to be played, according to UDE, it can really lead to some rather bad feelings, especially to an aspiring duelist who wants to do more than just play certain games.

I don't know where the World Championships are held and all, this year, or any year, but I would hope that judges from every country would be available there. By having proper communication on issues, and coordinating rulings and such, common mistakes such as these can be addressed by all parties equally, without one country siding for one side, and another country siding for the other, which could really lead to bad tensions and what would appear to be favoritism.

Mainly, it's things like that I'm trying to prevent here, by everything I've said, and done. I've seen the cards flipped by their own effect or Book of Moon from face-up attack to face-down defense, then flip-summoned immediately afterwards far too many times in the rather limited amount of human duelist contact I've had, and then even read about online and such. That's why I wrote a polite letter and thread forward to Mr. Okagawa, Mr. Schultz, and UDE Entertainment themselves already, and will probably do the same for Konami of Japan later this afternoon. I honestly don't care which way the rulings would be correct, but they obviously both cannot, and yet when so many people play certain cards in one way, there's definitely a miscommunication problem. My mission here is to try and make some offical public knowledge to the US, Japan, and the rest of the world, on how they are played correctly, and hopefully clear up any future confusion. :)

My only real fear though is that being an unknown nobody, noone will even bother to take my request seriously, because they themselves think they know more than some schmuck from the backwoods, who's just trying to get some more information as public knowledge.

I'm poor, I sure can't buy most of the cards I'd need if I wanted to be competitive in many aspects of the game, yet I strive hard for my own personal goal of maybe not winning the Nationals, or even going for that matter, but to at least get an invitation, and to prove that it doesn't take money, but brains and skill and heart, to let a person win.

At the last regionals I went to, I dueled against someone who already has a nationals invitation, and is obviously rich enough, as he had 3 Royal Decrees in his deck/side deck, and I just barely lost to in the final game of the match. He shook my hand and told me that he may have lost a couple games today to bad luck, and won a few to good luck perhaps, but he hadn't dueled anyone as tough as me in months, and definitely not in that tournament at all. That really makes a person feel good, to be told someone like that, when they're virtually unknown, but playing with cards that just don't see play. The funny part was in game three, his friends, who had all finished their games by this time, had all gathered around, and so intrigued by my deck, that they wanted /me/ to win, someone they didn't know, instead of their own friend.

It's good sportsmanship and friendship like that, that this game should promote, especially between countries, which is why I feel this is such a serious matter, as much as it's misplayed. I'd like to see it corrected everywhere, including in the games themselves.

Sorry to go off so long and randomly, I'm just trying to show my whole reasons why this issue nags me so much. It's really quite the bother. :)
 
Well said CraniumX. Couldn't agree more. :D

One of the more frustrating aspects of this game for me has been the disparity between the different regions/languages. I actually considered a wholesale switch to Vs. or Magic just so I didn't have to deal with translation errors and Jpn/US rivalries/differences/whatevers. Printing errors from your own language are pain enough, translation errors just compound the problem. But nothing else appealed to me like Yugioh has, so I stick with this game as goofy and arbitrary as some of its rulings may be.

In all seriousness, good luck with your quest. It would be nice to see the game unified and the mechanics simplified and thoroughly explained at some point. There are days where I just want to throw my hands up in the air and say "screw it, these rulings don't make sense!", but what can I say, I love this stupid game. :rolleyes: :D

[edit] btw, if you happen to see me on AIM, feel free to hit me up for a duel. I haven't been on much recently, but I finally got my decks updated for the 4-1 list in YVD.
 
Isn't it remarkable how clear and concise the Game Mechanics of VS are, but somehow you get drawn back to Yu-Gi-Oh! each and every time?

I have been suspecting for some time now that there is indeed a dysfunctional relationship between the powers-that-be at UDE and Konami. Presuming that you have knowledgeable people that speak and write both languages fluently how difficult is it to maintain symmetry between one card game translation and the other? One country may have twenty-odd words that designate the sky while our country may only have one. But regardless of what you call it, it's remains what it is. The sky doesn't change just because I, or ten million people, call it doughnuts. And no matter how many more people call it that, for how many years they continue to call it that the sky will not become a doughnut.

But for some reason cards like Ultimate Offering, Dark Necrofear for a time and Stealth Bird are all doughnuts. There one thing to the Japanese but something else in American hands. Same game, but in America I can shove a Rook up my nose to put my opponents King in check. "?!!" Doesn't make sense. And yet, we stick around. That's gratitude for ya.
 
Digital Jedi said:
The sky doesn't change just because I, or ten million people, call it doughnuts. And no matter how many more people call it that, for how many years they continue to call it that the sky will not become a doughnut.

Except that Sky Dragon becomes a Donut Dragon, and instead of being equipped with "Dangerous blades", he becomes equipped with "tasty glaze".

*LOL* :D
 
Mmmmmmmmm, Forbidden Sky Dragon.....
eating.gif
 
Digital Jedi said:
Isn't it remarkable how clear and concise the Game Mechanics of VS are, but somehow you get drawn back to Yu-Gi-Oh! each and every time?

I have been suspecting for some time now that there is indeed a dysfunctional relationship between the powers-that-be at UDE and Konami. Presuming that you have knowledgeable people that speak and write both languages fluently how difficult is it to maintain symmetry between one card game translation and the other? One country may have twenty-odd words that designate the sky while our country may only have one. But regardless of what you call it, it's remains what it is. The sky doesn't change just because I, or ten million people, call it doughnuts. And no matter how many more people call it that, for how many years they continue to call it that the sky will not become a doughnut.

But for some reason cards like Ultimate Offering, Dark Necrofear for a time and Stealth Bird are all doughnuts. There one thing to the Japanese but something else in American hands. Same game, but in America I can shove a Rook up my nose to put my opponents King in check. "?!!" Doesn't make sense. And yet, we stick around. That's gratitude for ya.
After spending countless hours, days and years examining all of this, i come to one conclusion...

There is a real severe lack of care for the gameplay in Yu-Gi-Oh! from Konami.

You can blame the lack of qualified people at UDE, but in the end, if Konami was really interested in having real hard solid mechanics and gameplay throughout, they would have made the neccessary arrangements over here to make that happen.

Konami seems interested first and foremost in one thing ...making money any which way.

I know what you are going to say..."Every company wants to make money" and that is true. However, it seems quite clear to me that Konami's method of making money off of Yu-Gi-Oh! is heavily focused on marketing, rather than having a solid game to play.

They care more about making sure that every little kid is running around with thier brand new copy of Blue-Eyes White Dragon because they saw it on TV, than explaining why GAF's effect is Continuous instead of Triggered. They simply don't care whether the gameplay is solid, as long as the marketing keeps people interested.

Conversely, guys like Jeff Donais, Mark Hummel, Danny Mandel and the rest of the Vs. crew actually care about what players think of thier game from a gameplay point of view. Thier idea of making money, is making sure that players enjoy playing the game, because the game makes sense and is balanced, rather than marketing the product like its a circus act.

We only make it worse by buying into it... it's a vicious cycle. In the end who am i to say Konami is wrong, this is one of, if not the best selling game in NA right now.

As long as we keep putting money in thier pockets, they will just continue to not care.

Well, thats my once a month rant... maybe i should start a monthly "Nova's Monthly Rant" column? hmmm....
 
Digital Jedi said:
Isn't it remarkable how clear and concise the Game Mechanics of VS are, but somehow you get drawn back to Yu-Gi-Oh! each and every time?

I have been suspecting for some time now that there is indeed a dysfunctional relationship between the powers-that-be at UDE and Konami. Presuming that you have knowledgeable people that speak and write both languages fluently how difficult is it to maintain symmetry between one card game translation and the other? One country may have twenty-odd words that designate the sky while our country may only have one. But regardless of what you call it, it's remains what it is. The sky doesn't change just because I, or ten million people, call it doughnuts. And no matter how many more people call it that, for how many years they continue to call it that the sky will not become a doughnut.

But for some reason cards like Ultimate Offering, Dark Necrofear for a time and Stealth Bird are all doughnuts. There one thing to the Japanese but something else in American hands. Same game, but in America I can shove a Rook up my nose to put my opponents King in check. "?!!" Doesn't make sense. And yet, we stick around. That's gratitude for ya.
Wait, what are the problems with Ultimate Offering and Stealth Bird?
 
I agree with that, Novastar. Money seems to be a primary motivating factor. If only they realized the simplicity in hiring four or five people who are halfway intelligent, care deeply about the quality of gameplay, some of whom speak both languages, and gave one of them the final say on how the game worked for all languages and then after all that "effort" they begin to make more money in the process. Surprised that a buisness of thier caliber wouldn't realize that POing your customers is not a great way to drum up more buisness. It's good way to shoot yourself in the foot though.

It seems as if they have the basic building blocks there with Kevin Curtis, Steve and the others. But the structure doesn't appear to be there. Or more accuratly the authority. Maybe, and this is a big maybe, if KONAMI isn't so much interested in the Game Mechanics as we suspect they are the should turn full authority over to those that do. Like the people that are already in place trying to help make sense of the game for rest of us as we speak. . . uh, type.

Raijinili - What Ultimate Offering does and what Ultimate Offering says are two completely different things. And unless you already know what it does then a player could never, ever be able to ascertain how it really works just based on the card text. I didin't and I was completly disgusted by such an obvious oversite of an errata. I put three in my fire deck ;) but I was still disgusted. :( Oh, and I mentioned Stealth Bird just because it's similar to Gaurdian Sphinx and others that were mentioned before with regard to effect position changes burning your manual change for the turn.

JOls, CraniumX - Damm you all, now I'm craving doughnuts! :(
 
Not having card errata is one thing... not even including the rulings in the official faq kinda pisses me off :p The days when I didn't know the true usage of ultimate offering... bleah :mad:
 
Digital Jedi said:
One turn kills? Im not sure what you mean.
If you could use Ultimate Offering during you own Battle Phase you could just keep summoning and attack with new monsters.

With the right cards, i'm sure one could come up with many ways to keep the combo going.

I don't know if it is as powerful today as it was in the past, when they first released the card, but it still seems like potential for trouble.
 
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