Coin Flipping

[SPK]

Not sure if this is the correct area to ask a question like this though...but anyway.

In a tournament, if a person is found to be flipping the coin in such a way that they can virtually guarantee that they can call the same side all the time, and get it right, does that constitute any form of cheating or unsportsmanlike conduct?

In this case, a person was using Sasuke Samurai #4, and within one duel, the person called heads 14 times, and got heads 14 times without one missed call. Upon closer inspection, I found that the player had been always holding the coin flat, with tails being the side that can be seen, and knowing how coin flips work, that would bring a definite majority for heads to be flipped, and demonstrated that to other players afterwards.

As such, could that be considered for any sort of unsportsmanlike conduct/cheating? I just want to clarify this before officially letting the player know what can be done.

 

[Kyhotae]

How does "holding the coin flat" result in a majority of "heads" when flipped? If you "hold it on its side" there's no way to see which side it landed on. I need more explanation of what this guy's doing.

That aside, I'm no judge, but if a player was bragging about how he can flip a coin "in a way" that virtually guarantees a certain result, I'd warn him and make the opponent flip for him from then on.

 

[Blackscorp]

The coin flip should be ramdon.

Manipulatinf the toss in orther to optain an expecific result could be considered cheating. At the very least i would give him a warning the first time, next time I would upgrade to Unsportman Conduct - Cheating

 

[SPK]

When I mean that it's held flat, the coin is rested horizontally on the player's hand, and from experience, if the coin is placed as such, there is a greater chance then that the coin will land on one specific side, assuming that the player understands how coin flipping works, and in this case he does (he's an engineering student in college).

If the coin is held vertically however, there tends to be a bit more randomness in how the coin flips turn out. I demonstrated that to some players after the tournament, with the coin being held horizontally, I achieved 9 correct flips out of 10, and the one miss being because the coin hit the ceiling before landing. With the coin held vertically, I achieved only 6 out of 10 correct flips.

I don't know if there's any official documentation over an issue such as this, so hence the reason I bring this question to you guys, especially since this was a technique that was vital to the player in question achieving a 2nd place finish in the tournament.

 

[squid]

When I mean that it's held flat, the coin is rested horizontally on the player's hand, and from experience, if the coin is placed as such, there is a greater chance then that the coin will land on one specific side, assuming that the player understands how coin flipping works, and in this case he does (he's an engineering student in college).

If the coin is held vertically however, there tends to be a bit more randomness in how the coin flips turn out. I demonstrated that to some players after the tournament, with the coin being held horizontally, I achieved 9 correct flips out of 10, and the one miss being because the coin hit the ceiling before landing. With the coin held vertically, I achieved only 6 out of 10 correct flips.

I don't know if there's any official documentation over an issue such as this, so hence the reason I bring this question to you guys, especially since this was a technique that was vital to the player in question achieving a 2nd place finish in the tournament.

the shape and weight of the coin can influence the outcome, even though it be ever so slight. But, as you point out, this technique only increases the chance, it does not erase chance altogether.

Though it may seem a bit unethical in some aspects, I cannot see how this would be a justifiable way to define someone cheating.

Only if it were discovered that the coin used had somehow been altered, such as with sauter applied to one side to make it heavier, would I construe this as cheating.

As it is, its simply mathematical probability.

 

[anthonyj]

When I mean that it's held flat, the coin is rested horizontally on the player's hand, and from experience, if the coin is placed as such, there is a greater chance then that the coin will land on one specific side, assuming that the player understands how coin flipping works, and in this case he does (he's an engineering student in college).

If the coin is held vertically however, there tends to be a bit more randomness in how the coin flips turn out. I demonstrated that to some players after the tournament, with the coin being held horizontally, I achieved 9 correct flips out of 10, and the one miss being because the coin hit the ceiling before landing. With the coin held vertically, I achieved only 6 out of 10 correct flips.

I don't know if there's any official documentation over an issue such as this, so hence the reason I bring this question to you guys, especially since this was a technique that was vital to the player in question achieving a 2nd place finish in the tournament.

Perhaps the manner of flipping the coin is the problem. A coin flipped with rapid revolutions to a height of three or more feet in the air is considerably unlikely to give a 90% likelihood of success. However, a coin "flipped" with little revolution imbued (which is honestly more of a toss then an actual flip) is quite likely to yield the results you are describing. As a judge I would require that the coin be truly "flipped". The thumb should exert pressure at the edge of the coin and the coin should be making continuous revolutions in the air as to be more truly random.

 

[SPK]

Well the guy uses a local 25 cent piece, it's not the same coin (I often have to lend him one every so often), so it's not a case of illegally tampering with the coin. He just knows HOW to flip the coin (by that I mean he knows what exact pressure to apply for the coin flip, and how high to flip the coin), so that way he can achieve the flip he needs. There is no question over the number of revolutions that the coin is flipped; he never accepts a flip that hasn't done a minimum of 3 revolutions as a flip, and consistently achieves a flip of approximately 2 feet in the air before it starts to fall.

He knows this because he's doing mechanics as part of his degree, and has sat down and analyzed the physics behind it, a good project to say the least.

I was wondering if knowing how to flip the coin can be considered a form of unsportsmanlike play, but since there doesn't seem to be any.... he's just gonna be almost godlike with his SS#4...

 

[ancient_duelist]

I was wondering if knowing how to flip the coin can be considered a form of unsportsmanlike play, but since there doesn't seem to be any.... he's just gonna be almost godlike with his SS#4...

Is he catching the coin in his hand on the flip or letting it hit the table? FWIW, I require players to let the coin hit the table because that reduces the chance to manipulate the toss.

 

[anthonyj]

Well the guy uses a local 25 cent piece, it's not the same coin (I often have to lend him one every so often), so it's not a case of illegally tampering with the coin. He just knows HOW to flip the coin (by that I mean he knows what exact pressure to apply for the coin flip, and how high to flip the coin), so that way he can achieve the flip he needs. There is no question over the number of revolutions that the coin is flipped; he never accepts a flip that hasn't done a minimum of 3 revolutions as a flip, and consistently achieves a flip of approximately 2 feet in the air before it starts to fall.

He knows this because he's doing mechanics as part of his degree, and has sat down and analyzed the physics behind it, a good project to say the least.

I was wondering if knowing how to flip the coin can be considered a form of unsportsmanlike play, but since there doesn't seem to be any.... he's just gonna be almost godlike with his SS#4...

And I would point out that is where the problem lies. This is calculated tossing of the coin, flipping a coin should have the coin spinning in the air quick enough that there should not be the possibility of visual determination of revolution count (certainly not 3 revolutions). That is analogous to dropping a die instead of rolling it, with practice you can fairly consistently get the die roll that you need if you use such techniques. Which is why games such as backgammon used a cup to roll the die so there would be less opportunity to cheat the result.

Let the questionable player use a similar randomizer, throw the coin in a cup, shake it up and then toss it out onto the table. Or just request that the method I used before with a good sharp flip to the edge of the coin be used to truly get that thing randomized.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

it has to do with the angle at which the coin pivits and is fliped. The guy who figured this out had way too much time on his hands.

Intentionally altering the results of a coin flip to result in your favor is considered cheating. I recomend spinning the coin on the table like a top.

 

[paulb91085]

i say as long as the coin has two rotations then it can be called a flip.

 

[anthonyj]

i say as long as the coin has two rotations then it can be called a flip.

Yes it could be termed "flipped" but it certainly is unlikely to be a completely random outcome.

 

[blade146]

If the person knows what they are doing then they can alter the coin flip to give them higher odds of calling it right. There are many ways to stop this. Make them call it before the coin is flip and then let it hit the table or ground.

 

[SPK]

Well the coin flips can't be allowed to land on the table, since there were spaces in the table, where it is VERY easy for it to fall through, so it has to be caught by hand. But whether it lands on the table or if it was caught, he was able to achieve an uncommon level of accuracy in the coin flips...

And even though he never accepts anything less than 3 revolutions, it doesn't mean that he only did flips with 3 revs, it was definitely much more than 3, so it can't be said that he's simply tossing the coin in the air...

It's a difficult technique to determine any manipulation without some close observation, and this observation was done over the course of 6 rounds of match play.