Dark Balter the Terrible

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Fury

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Is its effect which negates monster effects considered a continuous effect?

So if it attacks D.D. Warrior Lady and Reinforcements gives 500 ATK to DDWL so both are destroyed, the effect of DDWL is not negated because a continuous effect is only active while the monster is alive(= not destroyed).
 
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Once battle damage has been calculated and Dark Balter's atk is equal to or greater than D.D. Warrior Lady...D.D. Warrior Lady is considered destroyed in battle.

A continuous effect monster's effect is active as long as it is face up on the field (assuming it's summon isn't negated)

In short, D.D. Warrior Lady will not be able to activate her effect.
 
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Well I read somewhere (didnt find yet where) that if a monster is destroyed its continuous effect stops right there.

In the FAQ I only found this but I will continue my search.
UDE FAQ said:
While "Macro Cosmos" is active on the field, monsters that are unaffected by the effects of Trap Cards (like "Elemental Hero Wildheart") are still removed from play instead of going to the Graveyard.
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EDIT: Found.
UDE FAQ said:
The effect of "Ancient Gear Golem" that prevents your opponent from activating Spell or Trap Cards is a Continuous Effect. It cannot be chained to. "Divine Wrath" cannot be activated against it.

If "Ancient Gear Golem" attacks, and is destroyed before the end of the Damage Step, its effect is no longer applied after it is destroyed, even if it is still on the field and has not yet been sent to the Graveyard. (A Continuous Effect is no longer applied after the monster generating it has been destroyed, even if the monster is still on the field.) The effect of "Ancient Gear Golem" is applied up until the point it is destroyed, though.
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So the effect of Dark Balter is not applied if it is a continuous effect and DDWL can remove both from play.
So, is it continuous?
 
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Well now....I appreciate you teaching me something new that I've never seen in a rule book or on the judge's list....I've never read that ruling....Thank you for correcting me and teaching me something new! Is this ruling written anywhere else that anyone else is aware of? This would be an excellent addition to the damage step details list in the "Resolve Effects" portion.

Your answered your own question!
 
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Thank you very much.
I searched the entire Judge List and FAQ about Jinzo and Macrocosmos but didnt find anything. Then I read the ruling for TLM and there it was.

Yeah, they put it in brackets, instead into the advanced gameplay faq:nyah

However the initial question was if the effect of Dark Balter, Dark Ruler and Dark Lucius is continuous or not.
 
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Fury said:
Thank you very much.
I searched the entire Judge List and FAQ about Jinzo and Macrocosmos but didnt find anything. Then I read the ruling for TLM and there it was.

Yeah, they put it in brackets, instead into the advanced gameplay faq:nyah

However the initial question was if the effect of Dark Balter, Dark Ruler and Dark Lucius is continuous or not.
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Right, we were discussing Dark Lucious LV6 and Dark Ruler Ha Des in another forum. The question was about if LV6 was tribute summoned but Dark Ruler Ha Des is out on the field...and LV6 destroys a monster and negates it's effect....if it can still be tributed to special summon LV8....and it's a darn good question....one for the judge's list.
 
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Dark Ruler checks before a monster is destroyed.

-So you Calculate Damage,
-Determine if a monster is going to be destroyed (Future tense)
-Dark Ruler's effect applies to any monster that is calculated that it will be destroyed.|
-Inflict damage to the lifepoints.
-Then monsters are destroyed stopping continuous effects.

However Dark Ruler Ha Des' effect is to place a lasting condition on the monster it destroyed. So since Dark ruler ha des has already decided that monsters' effects will be negated. It doesn't matter that Dark Ruler Ha Des is destroyed.
 
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Dark Lucius LV6 said:
During your next Standby Phase after this card has negated your opponent's monster effect, by sending this card to the Graveyard, Special Summon 1 ''Dark Lucius LV8'' from your hand or Deck.
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If Dark Ruler negates something that does not concern Lucius in any way.
Same if it is equiped with Wicked-Breaking Flamberge - Baou.


EDIT:

DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
However Dark Ruler Ha Des' effect is to place a lasting condition on the monster it destroyed.
Click to expand...
I can agree to this.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Dark Ruler's effect applies to any monster that is calculated that it will be destroyed.
Click to expand...
But not to this. I never heard of negating something beforehand.
Anyway, so you are saying it is a continuous effect, right?
 
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Woo Hoo! I found the other thread. I've been racking my brain with John over in the Lair on this one.

Yes, Dark Ruler's effect is indeed a continuous one. We know this from way back since you can't chain Divine Wrath to the negating part of the effect. However, there is a "trigger" to his effect in that a fiend type monster on the side of the field the Dark Ruler is on has to destroy a monster as a result of battle.

This may seem to contradict, but there are plenty of instances where there are effects that "trigger" but resolve in a "continuous" fashion in that they cannot be chained to.

As to the original issue at hand, I think its still up in the air. Is the text of Lucious LV6 being very specific that his own ability needs to negate the effect, or that a monster that he destroys has its effect negated.

Oddly enough, a spoiler from DM Comet back before the cards came out actually had the text indicating that it had to be Lucius' effect in order to qualify for leveling up.

I know I have put a message into hte judges list a little while back, so hopefully we'll hear from them soon. It could be a BIG boon to fiend decks if its not as specific. If it is specific, Lucius probably won't see much play in my decks 8^D
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Dark Ruler checks before a monster is destroyed.

-So you Calculate Damage,
-Determine if a monster is going to be destroyed (Future tense)
-Dark Ruler's effect applies to any monster that is calculated that it will be destroyed.|
-Inflict damage to the lifepoints.
-Then monsters are destroyed stopping continuous effects.

However Dark Ruler Ha Des' effect is to place a lasting condition on the monster it destroyed. So since Dark ruler ha des has already decided that monsters' effects will be negated. It doesn't matter that Dark Ruler Ha Des is destroyed.
Click to expand...

Have you a link to this information? It's new to me as well. From what I've understood a monster isn't considered destroyed until the beginning of the Resolve effects portion of the damage step.....from my understanding Dark Ruler Ha Des only negates effects of monsters it destroys.
 
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John Danker said:
Have you a link to this information? It's new to me as well. From what I've understood a monster isn't considered destroyed until the beginning of the Resolve effects portion of the damage step.....from my understanding Dark Ruler Ha Des only negates effects of monsters it destroys.
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"¢ [Re: Reflect Bounder] When "Reflect Bounder" is attacked by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", "Reflect Bounder" inflicts its effect damage, damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, "Dark Ruler Ha Des" negates "Reflect Bounder"'s effect, and "Reflect Bounder" does not destroy itself with its own effect, however it was still destroyed as a result of battle.

Although it would probably be best to reverse where i put Dark Ruler Ha Des beginning, and the lifepoints being inflicted. (It might make things easier to explain with amazoness swords woman for example)
 
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Yeah I didn't think there was a "future tense" check of damage calculation. I thought it was just at the damage calculation sub-step, you check the ATK/DEF of the two monsters. Barring no change (traps and such), you then classify the monster as "destroyed" from then on out the monster is more of a "shell" until you reach the "send to graveyard" substep.

Dark Ruler fits nicely into these because his effect is valid only AFTER you check the damage. On the converse, I believe its Injection Fairy Lilly that gets to do its boost BEFORE this comparison.
 
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DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
"¢ [Re: Reflect Bounder] When "Reflect Bounder" is attacked by "Dark Ruler Ha Des", "Reflect Bounder" inflicts its effect damage, damage calculation is applied, "Reflect Bounder" is determined to be destroyed as a result of battle, "Dark Ruler Ha Des" negates "Reflect Bounder"'s effect, and "Reflect Bounder" does not destroy itself with its own effect, however it was still destroyed as a result of battle.

Although it would probably be best to reverse where i put Dark Ruler Ha Des beginning, and the lifepoints being inflicted. (It might make things easier to explain with amazoness swords woman for example)
Click to expand...

I never really thought about that before DaGuy...never noticed that they put Reflect Bounder's effect of destroying itself before the resolve effects portion in the damage step chart <pondering> It seems odd doesn't it?

It would seem then that this ruling with Ha Des and the one that was posted earlier in the thread with Ancient Gear Golem countradict one another doesn't it? This seems to be saying that the monster is considered destroyed before the resolve effects portion....one of two things needs to change around for this all to make sense. Either (in the damage step chart) monsters need to be considered to be destroyed before Reflect Bounder's effect activates, or Reflect Bounder's effect needs to take place in the Resolve effects portion. I think we went through this when we were talking about Ha Des / Reflect Bounder / Heavy Mech. Support Platform at one time didn't we?

Something seems amiss here. Thanks for bringing it back up DaGuy, good for me to review these details from time to time and rexamine them. This is why I'm very much against closing threads if they should take a tangent after the question is answered....which, I'm not entirely sure it is here yet!
 
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One problem in yugioh, is that it uses normal words for its game mechanics, and doesn't capitalize or italicize many of them.
---

As far as i know, there are no manually activated effect that are activated (spontaneously) in the resolve effects portion.

So then, it might be said that sub-step 5 exists only when necessary. So if Dark Ruler Ha Des is attacking a Sangan, and no other effect are involved. "Destroyed" in a game mechanincs term is happening at the same time as being sent to the graveyard.

That is to say "Destroyed" in the usual sense refers more to a monster leaving the field than to it dying in battle.

So Dark Ruler Ha Des' idea might have been:
"Any monster, that has lost in battle to a fiend monster on your side of the field, has its effects negated"

But then, one has to define "lost." Its not going to negate Spirit Reaper's effect, so we need to say "Lost" means "is going to be destroyed"

But then, you get a run on text that gets shrunk to just "destroyed".


A similar issue with words was with Kuriboh, it says "inflicted" but you don't wait it till damage has been inflicted to reduce it to zero. http://www.cogonline.net/threads.18173

I.E. "Destroyed (As a result of battle)" isn't necessarily past tense, it doesn't have been destroyed already to be referenced as "destroyed"
 
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This is a really good subject matter to sort out. Not that it's going to be an issue often mind you, more in terms of understanding mechanics for those who care to dive in this deeply.

If I run into Kevin or Dan next week at GenCon So. Cal. I'll ask them about this subject (along with Dark Lucious LV6 / Dark Ruler Ha Des)

I'd best work on getting my list of questions together since GenCon Indy and put it in my billfold now so I have it on me.

Thanks for your input DaGuy.
 
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