destroyed in battle or by effekt?

[DarkSpider]

hi all

you all know the Damage step chart from kevin?! its all about step [5] in this thread.

ok hier are the situations:
D.D. warrior lady attacks an defense position Des Kangaroo and ddwl wants to remove

the 2 effects apply both in the Damage Step [5]
they form a chain
turnplayer is chainlink1 = ddwl effect
nonturnplayer chainlink2 = Kangaroo effect

resolution:
chainlink2: kangaroo's effect destroys ddwl
chainlink1: ddwl's effect will remove the kangaroo

this is clear

next situation:
ddwl attacks an attack position Des Kangaroo and ddwl wants to remove

since the higher atk from Des Kangaroo, the ddwl is considered as "destroyed" in the step [5] and the effect from Des Kangaroo can´t destroy the ddwl.
so the only effect in step [5] is the remove effect from ddwl and both monters are removed from play.

this must be true because regarding to this judge list mail, a monster attacking an atk position kangaroo is considerd as destroyed in battle

Why can't the Kangaroo destroy the ddwl in situation 2?
Why can't the kangaroo destroy the Tomato?
A ddwl that attacks a Mystic Tomato, CAN remove both from play, even if the Tomato is already considered as "destroyed in battle"

Why can a Cyber Jar Destroy himself in step [5], even if he is already destroyed in battle.
Why can the Cyber Jar do this, and a Kangaroo can't

the same with a monster that attacks a wall of illusion in atk position.
the monster will be send to the graveyard, and not to the hand
"¢ If the monster battling with "Wall of Illusion" is somehow destroyed during Damage Calculation, it is sent to the Graveyard and NOT returned to the owner's hand.

why can a ddwl remove both monsters(even if the monster is destroyed in battle)
but a wall can't send an attacking monster to the hand.


The big question is:
witch effect can target a monster that is considered as "destroyed in battle"

My first thought was like this:
Targeting effects(like Penguin Soldier) can't apply on "destroyed in battle" monster
Non-Targeting effects(like cyber jar) can apply to "destroyed in battle" monster

but this seams not to be right, because wall of illusion and Des kangaroo are not targeting.

so anyone knows a rule witch effect can target a "destroyed in battle" monster, and witch can't?

i hope my question is clear, its a little bit late

Greetings from germany!
Spider

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The ones that may affect monsters destroyed are the Ones Konami Says so.

The only reason that Cyber Jar and Fiber Jar affect themselves when destroyed by battle is because that's how the Game's creator wanted these cards to work.

Those cards do NOT follow a rule.

 

[novastar]

The big question is:
witch effect can target a monster that is considered as "destroyed in battle"

My first thought was like this:
Targeting effects(like Penguin Soldier) can't apply on "destroyed in battle" monster
Non-Targeting effects(like cyber jar) can apply to "destroyed in battle" monster

but this seams not to be right, because wall of illusion and Des kangaroo are not targeting.

so anyone knows a rule witch effect can target a "destroyed in battle" monster, and witch can't?

i hope my question is clear, its a little bit late

Greetings from germany!
Spider

Actually, this is quite correct.

Do not listen to anyone that tells you that it is "Konami said so..."

Targeted effects cannot target a monster destroyed in battle (after damage calculation). Non-targeted effects CAN affect monsters already destroyed. This is actually written in the Japanese Rulebook. The english translation is incorrect and outdated, i often find it funny that people still actually consider it valid and use it as an excuse. Anyone who does not understand Cyber or Fiber or Morphing, well, simply does not understand.

It is the ruling on Wall of Illusion and Des Kangaroo that need clarification.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Actually, this is quite correct.

Do not listen to anyone that tells you that it is "Konami said so..."

Targeted effects cannot target a monster destroyed in battle (after damage calculation). Non-targeted effects CAN affect monsters already destroyed. This is actually written in the Japanese Rulebook. The english translation is incorrect and outdated, i often find it funny that people still actually consider it valid and use it as an excuse. Anyone who does not understand Cyber or Fiber or Morphing, well, simply does not understand.

It is the ruling on Wall of Illusion and Des Kangaroo that need clarification.

Morphing Jar #2 does not target. It does not inlude itself. Why not?


Edit: Quite Frankly, there is no "It's in the Japanese rulebook" argument. All rulings that are out of date are because Konami Says so. The japanese game does not matter. Dark Necrofear gets its effect when destroyed as an Equip spell card because Konami hasn't said otherwise--it's not how it works in Japan but that doesn't matter.

This is not Japan. Yes our rule book is out of date, but is out of date because konami Says so, not because there is a Japanese rule book out there with different rules.