Divine Wrath (Sinister Serpent/Dark Ruler Hades)

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The information contained in this post is no longer valid. The rulings on the FAQ have changed. And thus all extrapolations are erroneous.




I believe we have our answer:

"You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Special Summoned by its own effect. If you do this, since its effect was negated by "Divine Wrath", "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" does not Special Summon itself by its effect again during your next Standby Phase, even though it was destroyed by a card effect (the effect of "Divine Wrath")."

Thus: Divine Wrath does have a permanent negation ability like Dark Ruler Ha Des.

And: If you negate Sinister Serpent's effect, it will not be coming back during the next standby phase.

Unclarity: It appears Divine Wrath is negating the special summon effect of Sacred Phoenix, and not the trigger effect that happens when it is summoned that way.
But i can't say for certain.
If it is the former, then it means that cards can be destroyed while they are in the graveyard. If it is the latter than Divine Wraths permanet negation can apply to the whole monster card, and not just the effect it was countering.

 

[novastar]

It may not neccessarily mean that.

Unfortunately its still hard to tell due to the fact that Phoenix's effect specifically relies on her being destroyed by card effect in order to work. So Divine Wrath negating her effect might in a sense nullify that.

Sinister Serpent's does not rely on destruction by card effect.

If it is the former, then it means that cards can be destroyed while they are in the graveyard.

I have to say that i find this ruling as well as V-Lord's quite odd, in general card's in the Graveyard cannot be destroyed.

This seems to be specific to this card like V-Lord, for some reason they are ruled differently. (check Solemn Judgment and Royal Oppression rulings)

If you can indeed "chain" to the the Special Summon effect then Phoenix should never leave the Graveyard and never be destroyed.

 

[densetsu_x]

Not that I like to rely upon JERP rulings for finding answers to some things... but... I believe Maester Bacman translated this one ruling of Divine Wrath vs. Sinister Serpent which said that you could use Divine Wrath to negate the effect of Sinister Serpent... but that you could then turn around and reactivate the effect of Sinister Serpent during the same standby phase which makes it rather pointless. In either case, that ruling really flies and contradicts a lot of the the earlier precidents as stated.

 

[Maester Bacman]

Well, guys. This is what I have.

Raijinili put the Japanese ERP ruling of Divine Wrath vs Sinister Serpent in an old thread and I tried to translate it with some help, to try to get all my doubts cleared. This is the array of words that are the literal translation (EDIT: heh, learning english) of the kanjis found in the ruling. I would like to leave the interpretation to you.

[Sinister Serpent (Killer Snake)] and [Divine Wrath (Judgment from Heaven? I forgot)] - //negation//ability//but//, //negation//even if//that//Standby Phase//in//Killer Snake//again//effect//use//. (//after all//sense//without//)

 

[novastar]

My interpretation is as it always has been...

[Divine Wrath] should only negate one instance of an effect activation, as well as any resulting consequences that the effect might have brought about.

 

[daivahataka]

Not that I like to rely upon JERP rulings for finding answers to some things... but... I believe Maester Bacman translated this one ruling of Divine Wrath vs. Sinister Serpent which said that you could use Divine Wrath to negate the effect of Sinister Serpent... but that you could then turn around and reactivate the effect of Sinister Serpent during the same standby phase which makes it rather pointless. In either case, that ruling really flies and contradicts a lot of the the earlier precidents as stated.

It all really depends on if Divine Wrath is a one off negation or it has a lingering effect on the monster, if it's the former then since you're still in the standby phase you'd be free to use Sinister's effect again, otherwise you'd have to wait until the lingering effect times out (if it does at all). It's this aspect of Divine Wrath that UDE really have to clear up and take a stance on, god knows we've been waiting long enough for a ruling on this situation.

 

[chaosruler]

I concur (big word) with Novastar's theory on Divine Wrath, so that is does not have a Ha Des-like lingering "Effect Negation Effect". Divine Wrath negates the activation at that time, and any consequences (quoting novastar)

Let's get raigekick to poll this too, lol
-chaosruler

 

[Bigred Blues]

So cards like Vampire lord and Phoenix would not come back because the instance of the special summoning is negated?

But then Sinister Serpent can be brought back any number of times. All Sinister serpent needs basically is to be in the Graveyard during the standby phase, and not to have been destroyed be a negation effect like Balder or Hades.

Then again JERP hasn't always been correct in the past, then again"¦I still remember the heart of the underdog issue from a lil ways back.

I would love for a Netrepâ„¢ or something along those lines to clarify this issue...

 

[CraniumX]

So cards like Vampire lord and Phoenix would not come back because the instance of the special summoning is negated?

That's what I was thinking pretty much right from the start, it seemed like it anyway, since when they tried to come back, the effect was negated, therefore they never got back on the field to be destroyed again, for their affect to trigger again.

But then Sinister Serpent can be brought back any number of times. All Sinister serpent needs basically is to be in the Graveyard during the standby phase, and not to have been destroyed be a negation effect like Balder or Hades.

So if negated by Ha Des, as long as Serpent stays in your graveyard, its effect will never trigger again? I know on the rules it says effects that activate in the graveyard are negated by Ha Des, but it would seem to me that Serpent would be an exception to this, since its effect lingers in the graveyard each turn. I guess it would also negate Helpoemer, and any other card that has to stay in the graveyard to have its effect work?

In the case of Divine Wrath vs. Serpent, to me, it seems like that would be pointless anyway... sure, the card effect activated, and DW stopped Serpent as it was trying to come back to the hand, but then it's still in the graveyard, and for its effect to activate, that's the only condition it has, unlike Vampire Lord or the Phoenix, which have to be on the field when they're destroyed by a card effect, for their re-summoning effects to activate. I mean, you don't get to special summon either of them if you just discard them.

 

[Digital Jedi]

So I guess it's safe to assume that there is a distinction between effects that activate as soon as they hit the Graveyard and effects that activate at some point during thier stay in the Graveyard.

 

[novastar]

I think its more likely to say, that "they" (UDE/Komami) really don't have the rulings for Divine Wrath ironed out yet.

There are a lot of unanswered questions, and no doubt they are witholding them on purpose.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

So I guess it's safe to assume that there is a distinction between effects that activate as soon as they hit the Graveyard and effects that activate at some point during thier stay in the Graveyard.

Hmmm... not really. You know how UDE/Konami hectic rulings can get. You know what Im sayin bra?

They'll say this will work because that will be right then some other dude has a valid point and has a reason why it will work because that card works great with this card then Konami/UDE or whoever makes ruling changes em around.

Probably in the near future, they still probably won't have straight rulings for Divine Wrath. So many cards in the game today, and more to come too. Whoever makes ruling must have a hard time trying to not make mistakes. Good job if you ever read this.

Then later on some guy will find an infinite loop, get verified, then later on that card in the infinite loop gets banned and yata yata yata lol you get the point.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Hmmm... not really. You know how UDE/Konami hectic rulings can get. You know what Im sayin bra?

They'll say this will work because that will be right then some other dude has a valid point and has a reason why it will work because that card works great with this card then Konami/UDE or whoever makes ruling changes em around.

Probably in the near future, they still probably won't have straight rulings for Divine Wrath. So many cards in the game today, and more to come too. Whoever makes ruling must have a hard time trying to not make mistakes. Good job if you ever read this.

Then later on some guy will find an infinite loop, get verified, then later on that card in the infinite loop gets banned and yata yata yata lol you get the point.

LOL Thats probably true. I've probably said this over and over again everytime confusing rulings pop up, but I can't help but think this game isn't anywhere near as confusing in Japanese. I get the feeling they are translating card text to be too literal. As a result it's like literaly translated Anime. You knida get it, but some stuff just doesn't make any sense. What YGO needs instead of a translation of card text is a transliteration of card text. Meaning, simply: make the card text say what it means.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

LOL Thats probably true. I've probably said this over and over again everytime confusing rulings pop up, but I can't help but think this game isn't anywhere near as confusing in Japanese. I get the feeling they are translating card text to be too literal. As a result it's like literaly translated Anime. You knida get it, but some stuff just doesn't make any sense. What YGO needs instead of a translation of card text is a transliteration of card text. Meaning, simply: make the card text say what it means.

They can't do that. The text has to be as close as possible to the original Japanese text.

The cards are Copyright of Kazuki Takahashi. If the translators took liberties then the translations would be copyright of the translators, violating the business agreement.

 

[maestro satori]

I think of devine wrath and v. lord the way I think of jinzo and solem judgement. in order to negate the summoning of jinzo solem judgement is activated after jinzo is on the field ( the only way to know what monster it is and wether you want to negate the summon. )

so if vampire lord is special summoned from the grave by his own effect I see him hitting the field then the player with the divine wrath decides "negate vampie lords special summon by negating his special summon effect.

vampire lord does indead hit the field but like jinzo and solem his special summon or the effect that special summoned him is negated. unlike solem vampie IS destroyed & negated Jinzo is just prevented.

that is my opinion at least.

 

[Tkwiget]

Yeah but it's a real pain for us Judges to try and determine the correct ruling. However, without all these problems it wouldn't give us as much to do as we can right now. I find it interesting and rather annoying at times to see the worst card wordings in the game and then the ruling that is actually correct almost looks completely opposite of what it says.

 

[maestro satori]

as for my 2 cents on sinister, I beleive it would be a game mechanic that states if an effect is negated it remains negated until the card is removed from the location/state where it was negated. meaning that sinister is negated and sent to the grave. because devine wrath negated sinister's ability to return it's self to hand it would remain negated unless sinister is removed from the grave. at which point his effect would be reset. Similar to butterfly daggers if imperial order is active when butterfly daggers is equiped and then destroyed it's return to hand effect would be negated until either replayed or returned to an in play non negated state ( example: chopman returning him to the field while imperial order is still active ) I may have tht one wrong.

 

[Raijinili]

I got an answer from Curtis on this topic, before it was even made. I asked whether you could use Divine Wrath on the special-summon effect if you took this ruling into account, and he said you could do that too. So apparently, that ruling is for when the Phoenix was successfully special summoned.

Not that I like to rely upon JERP rulings for finding answers to some things... but... I believe Maester Bacman translated this one ruling of Divine Wrath vs. Sinister Serpent which said that you could use Divine Wrath to negate the effect of Sinister Serpent... but that you could then turn around and reactivate the effect of Sinister Serpent during the same standby phase which makes it rather pointless. In either case, that ruling really flies and contradicts a lot of the the earlier precidents as stated.

Then again JERP hasn't always been correct in the past, then again"¦I still remember the heart of the underdog issue from a lil ways back.

I don't know what the ruling means, but the only time the JERP would be wrong is when the ruling is outdated. If the JERP has more rulings changed than UDE (and not much more, if it did), then that would only be because it had more of them in the first place.

I posted its rulings on Serial Spell and Big Shield Gardna before UDE released theirs, and they had about the same rulings, give or take a couple. If that doesn't show at least some credibility, I don't know what to tell you.

And WHAT Heart of the Underdog issue?

LOL Thats probably true. I've probably said this over and over again everytime confusing rulings pop up, but I can't help but think this game isn't anywhere near as confusing in Japanese. I get the feeling they are translating card text to be too literal. As a result it's like literaly translated Anime. You knida get it, but some stuff just doesn't make any sense. What YGO needs instead of a translation of card text is a transliteration of card text. Meaning, simply: make the card text say what it means.

They do that, and it usually makes it worse. Examples: Ultimate Offering (its change in wording made Mystic Swordsman unclear), Guardian Tryce, Exiled Forces, Mirror Force, Raimei, Axe of Despair, and all special-summon-only monsters before Magician's Force.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The ruling i quoted to start this thread no longer exists:

The new ruling is:

You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Special Summoned by its own effect. Because this effect activates in the Graveyard, and is being negated while "Sacred Phoenix of Nepthys" is in the Graveyard, "Sacred Phoenix of Nepthys" is never Special Summoned (so the card is never moved from the Graveyard) and is never destroyed. Because it is not destroyed, its effect to Special Summon itself does not activate again.

Which means all the extrapolations i made about Divine Wrath were based on false information and are no longer valid. As Densetsu_x pointed out in another thread:

Divine Wrath does Not have any lingering negations power.

 

[skey23]

Divine Wrath does Not have any lingering negations power.

As densetsu_x also stated in his other thread, Konami still seems to be confused on that particular issue.

The ruling for "Helpoemer" states it's effect is 'permanently' negated, but the effect of "Sinister Serpent" is not.

Still kinda wishy washy.