Forced Back To Playground YGO?

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Jason_C

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Negate the Normal Summon or Flip Summon of a monster and return the monster to its owner's hand.

Rulings :
You cannot activate this card when a monster is Set.
If a monster with a Flip Effect is Flip Summoned and you activate "Forced Back", then the Flip Effect never activates.
If you negate the Normal or Flip Summon of "Dark Magician of Chaos" with "Forced Back", it is returned to the hand and is not removed from play.
You can activate "Forced Back" when you Normal or Flip Summon your own monster. You should announce this immediately after your Summon. Once you allow your opponent to activate "Torrential Tribute" you are acknowledging that the Summon was successful and you cannot activate "Forced Back".
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I have reason to suspect the bolded ruling is in error. The intended meaning, I believe, is to confirm that, even in the "imaginary" window in which Horn of Heaven, Solemn Judgment, Forced Back, and Royal Oppression are to be activated, the summoning player still has priority off the bat to respond. That is, you may Force Back or Solemnly Judge your own monster before your opponent may do so.

So that's what I think the ruling means. But that's not what it SAYS. What it says is that if your opponent gets a chance to use a "real" card, then that automatically means you have entered "real" play and have passed that "imaginary" window for Solemn Judgment. What about all the talk of "YGO isn't a race" and "Priority is there to keep order" and "Just because your opponent jumped the gun doesn't mean they have a right to"?

Remember how, if you summon Cannon Soldier, and your opponent flips up a Trap Hole, you can say "Whoah! Slow down there! It's my turn; I summoned; I want to use my Cannon Soldier's Ignition effect!" and their Trap Hole will be returned to a face-down position? Well, why shouldn't the same apply here? Who says your opponent can jump the gun and play Torrential, thus cheating you out of your ability to Force Back your own monster? Aren't they supposed to wait until after you pass priority before they play?

:edit Yeah, and I'm using the words "imaginary" and "real" because I still contest the imaginary window for the activation of spell speed threes in response to a summon. But yeah...
 
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I thought Solemn Judgment, Horn of Heaven, Forced Back, and Royal Oppression all have the same activation timing as cards like Torrential Tribute, Trap Hole, and Bottomless Trap Hole.

Players that rush to activate their cards faster than their opponent's (phyiscally that is) are conducting sloppy play. I always thought that the summoning player had priority to respond to their own summoning first before their opponent does. =/
 
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Tkwiget said:
I thought Solemn Judgment, Horn of Heaven, Forced Back, and Royal Oppression all have the same activation timing as cards like Torrential Tribute, Trap Hole, and Bottomless Trap Hole.
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Um...no. Their timing is immediately after the Summon has been announced, but 'before' the monster is considered to have made it to the Field.
 
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Tkwiget said:
So the monster is on some sort of floating platform in between your hand and the field? Who the heck's idea was that? =/
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As I explained, what happened was that Konami ruled you could not chain to a summon AFTER Solemn Judgment had been released. When the looked back and saw that SJ was a Counter Trap, they had to cover their butts by creating the "imaginary" window for activation and putting the monster in Fairy-tale land.

:edit If anyone wants proof of my Fairy-Tale land story, consider this. What happens when you SJ a Sangan? It doesn't get its effect because it wasn't on the field. What happens when you SJ a Night Assailant? It doesn't get its effect because it wasn't in your hand. So where the heck was it? In imaginationville.
 
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Tkwiget said:
So the monster is on some sort of floating platform in between your hand and the field? Who the heck's idea was that? =/
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Well if the game was played like it should really be played, you know with everything called out: "i'll summon", "i'll enter my Battle Phase", "i'll declare an attack" etc. maybe things would be different XD
 
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In Yu-Gi-Oh! the Turn Player basically has priority to activate an effect at the beginning of all Phases, Steps and after summoning a monster and/or the declaration of a summon.

Whenever a player summons a monster or let's say declares his/her intention to summon a monster, the first opportunity to activate any effects is actually a "summon negation" window. As far as I know "summon negation window" is not a published term of Yu-Gi-Oh! but this window of time exists before a monster is considered successfully summoned and before a player can declare priority to activate an ignition effect.

Either player may negate the summon of a monster; however, the Turn Player has priority to negate the summon first. Because he has that priority, he must immediately announce this intention to negate his own monster summon. If he does not announce this intention and the opponent does not negate the summon, the monster is now considered successfully summoned. Once a monster is successfully summoned, you can activate appropriate trigger effects or use priority for its ignition effect. You may now activate cards that respond to a summon such as Trap Hole, Torrential Tribute, etc.

The rule for "Forced Back" is there to prevent players from abusing this card. Let's say TP wants to summon Breaker the Magical Warrior but the NTP decides to activate Ring of Destruction on it. The TP cannot suddenly say, "Oh, I want to use my set Forced Back to send Breaker back to my Hand", thus preserving the card and its ability to destroy a Spell/Trap. This type of dubious play also gives the TP knowledge of your trap card.

So in order to prevent the Turn Player from goading his/her opponent into revealing Trap/Spell cards, this ruling was established. It also confirmed to judges that the Turn Player has priority in summon negation as well.

doc
 
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The rule for "Forced Back" is there to prevent players from abusing this card. Let's say TP wants to summon Breaker the Magical Warrior but the NTP decides to activate Ring of Destruction on it. The TP cannot suddenly say, "Oh, I want to use my set Forced Back to send Breaker back to my Hand", thus preserving the card and its ability to destroy a Spell/Trap. This type of dubious play also gives the TP knowledge of your trap card.
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I feel I must disagree. This is the issue I have. In the example you gave, why did NTP not wait until after TP had said "I do not intend to negate the summon"? Is it not NTP's own fault for jumping the gun? Just like if I had summoned Cannon Soldier and you activated Trap Hole before I passed priority, it is not my problem if my opponent plays sloppily. If NTP wants to illegally activate their card and show me what the trap is, that's their problem and they should have to deal with the rules. Until I say "I do not wish to activate anything" my opponent should NOT be turning up cards. If they do, it's their fault.
 
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ygo doc said:
In Yu-Gi-Oh! the Turn Player basically has priority to activate an effect at the beginning of all Phases, Steps and after summoning a monster and/or the declaration of a summon.
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We agree on this. However, wouldn't declared attacks be included as well?

Whenever a player summons a monster or let's say declares his/her intention to summon a monster, the first opportunity to activate any effects is actually a "summon negation" window. As far as I know "summon negation window" is not a published term of Yu-Gi-Oh! but this window of time exists before a monster is considered successfully summoned and before a player can declare priority to activate an ignition effect.
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I like this "summon negation window" term since it best labels the game mechanic. Also, not only Ignition Effects but Spell Speed 2 and higher card effects.

Either player may negate the summon of a monster; however, the Turn Player has priority to negate the summon first. Because he has that priority, he must immediately announce this intention to negate his own monster summon. If he does not announce this intention and the opponent does not negate the summon, the monster is now considered successfully summoned. Once a monster is successfully summoned, you can activate appropriate trigger effects or use priority for its ignition effect.
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That's if the monster has an Ignition Effect. Also a player could activate Spell Speed 2 cards here.

The rule for "Forced Back" is there to prevent players from abusing this card. Let's say TP wants to summon Breaker the Magical Warrior but the NTP decides to activate Ring of Destruction on it. The TP cannot suddenly say, "Oh, I want to use my set Forced Back to send Breaker back to my Hand", thus preserving the card and its ability to destroy a Spell/Trap. This type of dubious play also gives the TP knowledge of your trap card.
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Another reason why we judges need to encourage stronger communitcation among players and their opponents to prevent sloppy playing from happening. I'm pretty sure John Danker (my head judge) has announced at the beginning of every event I've judged with him at in strong verbal communitcation between your opponents. This was his way (I'm only assuming of course) of making sure that strong verbal communitcation is vital to proper gameplay. I agree with this.

So in order to prevent the Turn Player from goading his/her opponent into revealing Trap/Spell cards, this ruling was established. It also confirmed to judges that the Turn Player has priority in summon negation as well.

doc
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I agree with this. The prime reason for a lot of these illegal card activations is due to poor verbal communitcation between the two players.
 
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Jason_C said:
I feel I must disagree. This is the issue I have. In the example you gave, why did NTP not wait until after TP had said "I do not intend to negate the summon"? Is it not NTP's own fault for jumping the gun? Just like if I had summoned Cannon Soldier and you activated Trap Hole before I passed priority, it is not my problem if my opponent plays sloppily. If NTP wants to illegally activate their card and show me what the trap is, that's their problem and they should have to deal with the rules. Until I say "I do not wish to activate anything" my opponent should NOT be turning up cards. If they do, it's their fault.
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Unfortunately, Yu-Gi-Oh! is not played that way, where both players announce every step and intention. However, at high level play, you will see both players always passing priority when necessary.

In your scenario, with the "quick draw" player who states "I Trap Hole your Cannon Soldier" before you have even taken your finger off the card, as a judge, I certainly am not going to penalize you for not declaring your priority. Your opponent has acted prematurely and his sloppy play is revealing cards to you. At the same time, if you summoned Exiled Force and asked your opponent do you respond and the opponent says "Yes, I activate Trap Hole", I'm not going to allow you tribute EF at this point, nor would I allow you to activate "Forced Back". When you ask "Do you respond", you are passing priority.

The ruling for "Forced Back" is not published to cover sloppy quick-finger players. It is to acknowledge that the Turn Player cannot pass priority to the opponent if he/she intends to negate their own summon.

doc
 
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The ruling for "Forced Back" is not published to cover sloppy quick-finger players. It is to acknowledge that the Turn Player cannot pass priority to the opponent if he/she intends to negate their own summon.
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I believe, too, that this is the intention of the rule. But that's not what the rule says. It says you have to declare your activation of Forced Back immediately. Quite the contrary. There's nothing stopping you from summoning a monster, scratching your head, considering the move for a good ten to twenty seconds, and then choosing to activate it. As long as you don't say "Would you like to respond" or "I am done" or anything similar, you still have priority. Priority is not something you must declare in order to have. You have it until you choose to pass it.
 
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Tkwiget said:
We agree on this. However, wouldn't declared attacks be included as well?
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Yes, the Turn Player also has priority after attack declaration.

I like this "summon negation window" term since it best labels the game mechanic. Also, not only Ignition Effects but Spell Speed 2 and higher card effects.
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Thanks, but beware using such non-official Yu-Gi-Oh! terms on the Judge list. I mentioned "Time-stamping" once on the list and got verbally chastised by the UDE powers that be that this was not an official Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG term. Ask John Danker about that one.

Another reason why we judges need to encourage stronger communitcation among players and their opponents to prevent sloppy playing from happening. I'm pretty sure John Danker (my head judge) has announced at the beginning of every event I've judged with him at in strong verbal communitcation between your opponents. This was his way (I'm only assuming of course) of making sure that strong verbal communitcation is vital to proper gameplay. I agree with this.
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I'm with you here. I've also had the pleasure of judging with John at 2 SJC's and he is an outstanding judge! I also like the fact you mention VERBAL communication. I've had too many situations where players make gestures or interpret gestures incorrectly. The biggest one is end of turn. Always verbally announce the end of your turn and ask if the player has ended their turn before you draw. There are high level players that are "rules lawyers" and they know if you draw a card and add it to your Hand and it's not your turn, it's an automatic game loss!

doc
 
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Jason_C said:
I believe, too, that this is the intention of the rule. But that's not what the rule says. It says you have to declare your activation of Forced Back immediately. Quite the contrary. There's nothing stopping you from summoning a monster, scratching your head, considering the move for a good ten to twenty seconds, and then choosing to activate it. As long as you don't say "Would you like to respond" or "I am done" or anything similar, you still have priority. Priority is not something you must declare in order to have. You have it until you choose to pass it.
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I won't disagree with you here, but this is why the rule states this: You should announce this immediately after your Summon. The ruling doesn't say you have to.

doc
 
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ygo doc said:
I won't disagree with you here, but this is why the rule states this: You should announce this immediately after your Summon. The ruling doesn't say you have to.

doc
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It says if you don't do it immediately, you could lose the opportunity to activate it. That's the same as saying you have to do it immediately.
 
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Hate to bump an old thread, but this issue was never really answered, as far as I can tell. Can someone please explain to me in VERY simple terms how this ruling does not contradict the most fundamental game mechanics?
 
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Frankly I don't see why, what, or how the ruling is confusing. I attempt to summon something. That's my chance to play Force Back or Solemn Judgment before my opponent can do anything else if I don't want the summon to go through (say I have Bountiful Artemis on the field and I want to draw a card, or attempt to trigger Voltanis the Adjudicator). Granted if my opponent decides to activate Torrential Tribute or Trap Hole in an eager attempt to get us, then we can say they acted too fast before we had our chance to go first and we rewind that little bit. However, since most of the time whenever we summon something we imply that the summon is good, we need to implicitly state what we're planning on doing. If we don't, we're conceding that the summon is good and as such missed our window to activate Forced Back. Simple.
 
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we need to implicitly state what we're planning on doing. If we don't, we're conceding that the summon is good and as such missed our window to activate Forced Back.
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The player who summoned the monster should declare if they intend to respond to the summon. But, if they remain silent and do not affirm or deny their intention to respond, then that does not give the opponent the right to respond. Instead, the opponent should (and must) ask.

"I summon Cannon Soldier".

....

..........

"Uhh... Are you going to respond to that in any way?"

"Oh, no, sorry, I forgot to pass priority".

"Okay, I'm going to activate Torrential Tribute".

NOT

"I summon Cannon Soldier".

....

...............

"I activate Torrential Tribute because you did not state your intention to respond!"
 
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