Horn of Heaven Vs Monster Reborn, etc.

S

StRiKe_NiNjA

Dimension Shift Ninja
Wow, this ruling, to be honest, is the newest to me, no matter how old it is... tsss, new to me.

You can't "respond" with "Horn of Heaven" to the "Special Summon" of a monster by "Monster Reborn"

Or why you can't "respond" with Horn of Heaven" to the "Special Summon" of a "ritual monster" brought out by a "Ritual Spell Card"

I find that hard to understand.

The only logical reason I can think off is that Horn of Heaven would interupt a chain.

Can someone explain why we are limited to use Horn of Heaven against only effects such as Vampire Lord, Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys, Dark Necrofear, etc.
 
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skey23 said:
Because Konami said so..that's why....lol....;) :p :D
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LOL... That's what they'll say to me to if I dialed 1-800-KONAMI LOL, all in the Japanese accent.

Kuu-naah-mey Sey Sow

But, I want a logical explanation. I lost to so many Exodia Decks like 2 years ago to people who have abused this card, when the release of Pharaoh Servent was out and Back Up Soldiers was limited to 1.

StRiKe_NiNjA: activates Monster Reborn, and declares Jinzo
Player 8: does not respond
Chain resolves... you get the idea
Jinzo is then placed on the field

Player 8: responds with Horn of Heaven tributing Witch of the Black Forest to negate the Special Summon of Jinzo

THUS, PLACING EXODIA's HEAD IN PLAYER 8's HAND THUS CAUSING VICTORY.

Man.... when I think about it.... I sucked back then lol
 
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skey23 said:
You know, I just noticed something. For the cards you have listed "Vampire Lord", "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys", and "Dark Necrofear", NONE of the rulings state you can use "Horn of Heaven" to negate them coming back via their OWN effect.

The rulings for each card states you can use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the INITIAL summoning of the monster.

Hmmm.
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You CAN use "Horn of Heaven" to negate a Special Summon that was achieved using the monster's own effect such as "Dark Necrofear," "Gate Guardian," "The Fiend Megacyber," "Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End," "Archlord Zerato," etc.

That was the ruling.
 
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It's simple, really.

Horn of Heaven is a Counter Trap. It has a specific trigger (the Normal, Flip or Special Summoning of a Monster). Counter Traps can ONLY be activated in a chain to its specific trigger. Magic Jammer can only be activated to the activation of a Spell Card. So if your opponent activates Double Spell to use your Monster Reborn, you have to negate Double Spell not Monster Reborn, which IS being activated, but at the Resolution of Double Spell.

Now let's activate Monster Reborn and SS a monster, let's say Archfiend Soldier.

You can't chain Horn of Heaven to Monster Reborn because no monster has been summoned yet. Horn of Heaven makes no mentioning as to negating effects that Special Summon, just Special Summoning.

And you can't activate it when the monster hits the field because the last thing that happened was Monster Reborn resolving. Monster hits the field at the resolution of Monster Reborn and now, Horn of Heaven, a Counter Trap which can ONLY be activated to a specific trigger, has nothing to chain to. A Special summoning of a monster is nothing to chain to because it has no spell speed.

Now take a look a Solemn Judgment. Solemn Judgment would be able to negate Monster Reborn, but if you wait until Monster Reborn finishes resolving, you'll have nothing to chain to. Again, the Special Summoning of a monster is nothing to chain to because it has no spell speed.

Horn of Heaven can negate Normal and Flip summons (and it's FLIP effect) and Special Summons by the monster's own effect.

Solemn Judgment negates Spell, Traps, Normal, Flip summons (and it's FLIP effect) and Special Summons by the monster's own effect.



Dark Ruler Ha Des
 
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[ycard="LOD-EN001" said:
Dark Ruler Ha Des[/ycard]]And you can't activate it when the monster hits the field because the last thing that happened was Monster Reborn resolving. Monster hits the field at the resolution of Monster Reborn and now, Horn of Heaven, a Counter Trap which can ONLY be activated to a specific trigger, has nothing to chain to. A Special summoning of a monster is nothing to chain to because it has no spell speed.
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Of course you can't "chain" to a Special Summon, you can only "respond" to it. That's the difference.

That's why they say, "You can never chain to a summon" because it has "no form of Spell Speed", but you can "respond" to it.

To me it doesn't matter how the monster is brought out, Horn of Heaven is activated in "response" to the "actual" summon of a monster.
 
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skey23 said:
You know, I just noticed something. For the cards you have listed "Vampire Lord", "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys", and "Dark Necrofear", NONE of the rulings state you can use "Horn of Heaven" to negate them coming back via their OWN effect.

The rulings for each card states you can use "Horn of Heaven" to negate the INITIAL summoning of the monster.

Hmmm.
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Good point... and one i've been weastling with in the Fusion Gate thread (and for a while frankly). The rulings that REALLY, and i mean REALLY mess me up (i know seems hard to believe eh...:p) are these:

Official FAQ said:
When you Special Summon "Vampire Lord" with his effect, your opponent can negate the Special Summon with "Royal Oppression", but the "Vampire Lord" will have been destroyed by your opponent's card effect ("Royal Oppression") and will be Special Summoned again during your next Standby Phase.
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Official FAQ said:
When "Vampire Lord" is Special Summoned by its effect, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon and destroy "Vampire Lord". If your "Vampire Lord" is destroyed in this way by the effect of a "Royal Oppression" card controlled by your opponent, then "Vampire Lord" was destroyed by a card controlled by your opponent, and is Special Summoned during your next Standby Phase.
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How in the world does Royal Oppression destroy V-Lord? You can't destroy card's in the Graveyard. I've always been lead to believe that V-Lord's effect (revival) was always a delayed/conditional Trigger (activated).

If this effect is a true Trigger and activates while he's in the Graveyard, you would just chain Royal Oppression to V-Lord's effect, and negate it. He should never step foot out of the Graveyard.

This is how i would see the scenario:

<Standby Phase>

~ Turn Player chooses to Trigger V-Lord's effect

[Chain Link 1] Vampire Lord

* Now you would chain with Royal Oppression

[Chain Link 2] Royal Oppression (Pay 800 LP)

Resolve and RO negates V-Lord's effect and he never leaves the Graveyard. You also should not be able to chain Horn or SJ to this.

It doesn't add up...this really makes me think that V-Lord's effect is not activated (a Trigger). The wording used is "if" which can indicate continuous/conditional resolution, much like Berserk Gorilla (destruction).

So infact you would be declaring the Special Summon of V-Lord (Phoenix too), and then you could "respond" to it with either Horn of Heaven, Solemn Judgment or Royal Oppression. In that case i can see the card being destroyed again, as it is technically coming to/or on the Field again waiting for a possible response, but not officially resolved into play yet.

For example:

<Standby Phase>

~ Turn Player chooses to resolve V-Lord's Special Summon

[event] Vampire Lord is being Special Summoned
* At this point the card would technically be on the field trying to resolve into play.

{Response Chain}

[OP Chain Link 1] Horn of Heaven/Solemn Judgment/Royal Oppression

Now THAT makes sense to me....

Just my thoughts
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field to negate the Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon of a monster and destroy it.

Seems to me this card is activated in response to the "actual" summon of a monster card. Same moment where as Bottomless Trap Hole, Trap Hole, Torrential Tribute, etc. would activate.
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There are two different response points when an object such as a monster is being summoned.

First, you declare the summon of the monster. This is when the monster is trying to resolve to the field. This is when Horn and the others are played, in direct response to this.

Second, the monster (object) is now successfully resolved into play and you can now respond to that with Bottomless and the like.

So 2 major response points when summoning a monster

- Response Point 1: the object (monster) wants to resolve into into play
- Response Point 2: the object (monster) has successfully resolved into play

Horn of Heaven and the like respond to point 1, and Bottomless Trap Hole and the like respond to point 2.

Hope that helps
 
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novastar said:
For example:

<Standby Phase>

~ Turn Player chooses to resolve V-Lord's Special Summon

[event] Vampire Lord is being Special Summoned
* At this point the card would technically be on the field trying to resolve into play.

{Response Chain}

[OP Chain Link 1] Horn of Heaven/Solemn Judgment/Royal Oppression

Now THAT makes sense to me....

Just my thoughts
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From the rulings you quoted, the logic above seems to be the correct logic. Since "Royal Oppression" is being activated AFTER the monster was 'placed' on the field.
 
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novastar said:
So 2 major response points when summoning a monster

- Response Point 1: the object (monster) wants to resolve into into play
- Response Point 2: the object (monster) has successfully resolved into play

Horn of Heaven and the like respond to point 1, and Bottomless Trap Hole and the like respond to point 2.
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That's new to me as well. But I don't think that's correct, I never heard of Response points. When a summoned is declared, that just letting your opponent know your taking action to place 1 monster on the field. There is no "actual" summon at this point, your just declaring an action.

If that were true, why can't Horn of Heaven Vs Monster Reborn?

Situation1:
Player 1: activates Monster Reborn declaring Jinzo
Player 2: since Jinzo is trying to make it to the "field", Player 2 activates Horn of Heaven
....
Why wouldn't that work?


Situation2:
Player 1: Standby Phase, Vampire Lord is "effect" triggers and is "attempting" to use it's "effect" to "Special Summon" itself to the field

The reason behind the Situation2, it's that it's "effect" is what Special Summon Vampire Lord to the field, at this point, there is no actual Special Summon, just an effect that activates.

Question:
If a Tribute Summon was attempted, do you Tribute that monster you wish to Tribute when you declare "Tribute Summon"? Is it not tributed? If it is, Horn of Heaven is actvated here then correct? Is the monster tributed when Horn of Heaven negated it? Is it not? What happens to the monster whos summon was just negated? Is it discarded? Is it considered destroyed? Left in the hand?


The summon itself must be present on the field for Horn of Heaven to negate it.

Player A: tributes 2 monsters and Normal Summons Dark Magician of Chaos, and upon his successful Normal Summon, he/she declares 1 Spell in the grave to be placed in the hand
Player B: responds with Horn of Heaven to negate the summon
Resolve Steps...

Negating the Normal Summon makes Dark Magician of Chaos summon "un"successful since it was negated. It was placed on the field too, so Player B knew exactly who it was when it hits the field, so Player B wouldn't have a hard time deciding whether to negate the Normal Summon of Dakr Magician of Chaos or not.

When a Normal Summon is declared, it all takes in one action, I really can't see "Response points". You declare the summon, then summon the monster all at once, then that action is completed. Then you could respond to it.
 
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argh, because, as I see it, once the card resolves, the summoning is "already successful" and Horn of Heaven has missed its timing. Since it is spell speed 3 (redundant, but i'm trying to help), you must respond directly to what you wish to negate at activating of a special summoning-self monster, flip summon, trib. summon, normal summon, etc.

i see it as the summon-negation timing is "concealed in the middle of the card effect" in regards to spell and trap special summoning. Bad example, but i'm just trying to help

-chaosruler
 
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Declaring a summon is like declaring an attack. This is the window where you can activate Horn or Solemn or Royal to negate it. Remember you are "negating" the summon so the monster never arrived on the field. That is why these 3 are the only traps that can be activated once Jinzo is declared for a "Normal Summon".

Bottomless Trap Hole on the other hand is responding to a successfully summoned monster.

Monster Reborn is going to Special Summon a monster when its effect resolves however you can only chain to it with an Appropriate card such as Magic Drain or Solemn Judgment or Royal Oppression. These cards can Negate the Spell card itself and don't have a restriction of only being able to negate a summon.

In your Monster Reborn example Jinzo is not trying to come to the field, Jinzo is being targeted by Monster Reborn to be Special Summoned from the graveyard. Horn of Heaven doesn't have the ability to negate a spell, trap or monster such as The Creator from Special Summoning another monster, it is only able to negate a monster being Normal Summoned, Flip Summoned or Special Summoned through its own effect.

I'm curious as to why so many people believe a card can't be destroyed in the graveyard. A card can be destroyed while in your hand or in your deck. Being destroyed certainly isn't limited to being on the field.
 
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Ok, I just noticed something that REALLY bugs me! From the FAQ on "Royal Oppression":

"If "Royal Oppression" is face-up on the field, and "Monster Reborn" is activated to Special Summon "Jinzo", you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" in a chain to negate the Special Summon because "Jinzo" is not on the field until the chain resolves."

Woah!..does that say what I think it says? Then why CAN'T you use "Horn of Heaven" the same way???

"Royal Oppression" is a Spell Speed 2 effect, "Horn of Heaven" is Spell Speed 3! So what's the deal?

They both do the same thing!

That's just wrong!
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, I just noticed something that REALLY bugs me! From the FAQ on "Royal Oppression":

"If "Royal Oppression" is face-up on the field, and "Monster Reborn" is activated to Special Summon "Jinzo", you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" in a chain to negate the Special Summon because "Jinzo" is not on the field until the chain resolves."

Woah!..does that say what I think it says? Then why CAN'T you use "Horn of Heaven" the same way???

"Royal Oppression" is a Spell Speed 2 effect, "Horn of Heaven" is Spell Speed 3! So what's the deal?

They both do the same thing!

That's just wrong!
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Pay 800 Life Points to negate a Special Summon of a monster and the effect of a card that Special Summons a monster and destroy it. Both you and your opponent can use this effect as long as this card remains face-up on the field.

Please note the inclusion of "And the effect of a card that Special Summons a monster". That is why you can use it. Also note that the Royal Oppression has to already be face up on the field "before" the Monster Reborn is activated because otherwise you would be chaining the activation of Royal Oppression (flipping it face up) to Monster Reborn and you can't flip it face up and activate its effect in the same chain. Thus once the chain had resolved Jinzo would be on the field and would be negating any possibility of using Royal Oppression.
 
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Yep, crud, I missed that part. I was so wrapped up in the whole 'negates the special summon' thing, I wasn't paying attention to detail...lol

Thanks.
 
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anthonyj said:
I'm curious as to why so many people believe a card can't be destroyed in the graveyard. A card can be destroyed while in your hand or in your deck. Being destroyed certainly isn't limited to being on the field.
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The Graveyard is where destroyed cards go. You cannot re-destroy a card that exists in the Graveyard. That's like KO'ing a card in the KO'd Pile in Vs, it doesn't make sense and you cannot do it.

As a general idea, if a card in the Graveyard would be destroyed, it is simply not destroyed. For example, Divine Wrath negating Mystic Tomato's effect. The effect is negated, but since Mystic Tomato is already in the Graveyard, it is not re-destroyed.
 
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StRiKe_NiNjA said:
If that were true, why can't Horn of Heaven Vs Monster Reborn?

Situation1:
Player 1: activates Monster Reborn declaring Jinzo
Player 2: since Jinzo is trying to make it to the "field", Player 2 activates Horn of Heaven
....
Why wouldn't that work?
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It reality it's very simple once you see it...

As i said before, there are two major response points when a summon occurs. This is no different in the case of effect like Monster Reborn etc. and Horn of Heaven can only respond to the monster resolving into play (the first response point).

So the reason you cannot use Horn of Heaven with Monster Reborn is because that event (the monster resolving into play) occurs inside or during the resolution of Monster Reborn and by the time you could respond with an effect, the monster has already been successfully summoned (resolved into play), and you have missed timing for Horn.

Hope that helps
 
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