I'm Officially Confused

[Jason_C]

Can someone please tell me the exact definition of the word "official" when referring to sources on Yu-Gi-Oh! rules, policies, and etiquette?

I've been hearing a lot of talk about it, and I'd like to understand more what people are saying. The Judges' List is not an official source of rulings, correct? But it IS an official source of policy updates, etc, correct?

 

[masterwoo0]

In my opinion, the confusion lies in the fact that Konami is the maker of the Yugioh Card Game for both the English Territory as well as Asian, and establishes all "written" Official Rulings for said game.

Like anything else that is "one source", any questions are steered in their direction for clarification, which we have all seen, can take days, months, or years, and sometimes "never", to answer.

As the go between, UDE established the Judge List to intercede on Konami's behalf and also created the FAQ located on the Official Yugioh-Card.Com Website. While a Ruling from Konami is considered "final" until they decide it needs to be redressed, Rulings given by any entity other than Konami, in my opinion, is weighed against the Certification of the individual providing the Ruling.

While a Level 1 Judge can certainly be as Knowledgeable as a 2 or 3, the Knowledge is assumed to be commensurate with Level attained. As a acting representative for Konami/UDE, each Judge is tasked to give "expert opinions" in the absence of clear or concise Rulings, either based upon similar existing Rulings, or by defining the Card Text as clearly as possible.

This is as "Official" as it gets when not delivered directly from the hands of Konami. It is not feasible to expect to wait for a ruling to be given by Konami during a Tournament in progress. If a Judges Ruling were not considered to be "Official", then the continuance of even the most basic Sanctioned Tourney would be unable to continue. Right or Wrong, a Ruling is Oficial when delivered by a Certified Source.

When we question a Ruling given by the Judge List, surely it is reasonable to believe that it could be incorrect. It is also reasonable to believe that a Ruling from Konami could ALSO be incorrect. So, what is it that makes one Source more credible than the other? Is it the fact that one comes from the Original Source of the Game, while the other comes from the attainment of required Level Certifications?

Again, I would say that there is a Heirarchy established with Rulings, which is no different that a Tourney Atmosphere. Floor Judges can be overruled by the Head Judge. The Judge List can be overruled by Konami. Nevertheless, from the Floor Judge all the way to Konami, a Ruling is Official unless it is contradicted by a higher source with the ability to do so.

Just my opinion....

 

[Digital Jedi]

Meaning that, while unofficial in the strictest sense of the word, the Judges List is still the source of information we're supposed to go by. So in practice, it is still official, but not in name. Which is unnecessarily confusing in my opinion.

 

[Jason_C]

Meaning that, while unofficial in the strictest sense of the word, the Judges List is still the source of information we're supposed to go by. So in practice, it is still official, but not in name. Which is unnecessarily confusing in my opinion.

But we're only supposed to go by it as long as we don't have REAL Official information from which to extrapolate, correct?

 

[Akabane]

I guess if you really want to clarify it you go to the list if you don't have the answer to something already but at the same time we find out most of the rulings from the "official site" and that isn't exactly a great place to find stuff because half of the time their rulings are just as shallow as someone phrasing what they think the ruling is based on common sense. I think the word official in Yugioh means nothing but confusion.

 

[Digital Jedi]

But we're only supposed to go by it as long as we don't have REAL Official information from which to extrapolate, correct?

Since the release of online rulings, and the formation of the list in this incarnation, it's been, more or less...

1. Card text
2. Posted Rulings
3. Judges List

... for determining what to do when one in that list isn't as clear as the one below. The Judges List, while not official in the strictest sense, is still the final word on things that have yet to be clarified. The whole processes has been unnecessarily muddled, even with having to have a go-between, because all UDE should should really be is a twain driver, meaning, they offer in English in what Konami has in Japanese. It shouldn't be this vague, and for English and other language TCGs, the Judges List should be official. Forget that it isn't official in Japan, it should be official for us.

Truthfully, there's no reason it shouldn't be an official source in the sense of the word their using, because we can't get it from anywhere else. We can't use the Japanese rulings to govern our TCG. We can't directly ask Konami what the rulings are because they've put UDE in that position. And our currently existing rulings have a too many holes to not need questions answered. So UDE should be official, since we can't get it anywhere else. It doesn't get anymore official then the Judges List for the English TCG, because as the "official" go-between, we won't, can't and are not allowed to get form any other source.

 

[slither]

Since the release of online rulings, and the formation of the list in this incarnation, it's been, more or less...

1. Card text
2. Posted Rulings
3. Judges List

I'd say:

1. Posted Rulings
2. Card Text
3. Judges List

We always have that BKSS thingy

 

[anthonyj]

And in practice that is how things operate here. The problem comes from the level of misinformation Konami has seen come from UDE. I'm sure their own communication to UDE can be partially to blame for this but the end result is what we now have to deal with. If UDE were simply translating the Japanese rulings we would not be in the same predicament now. The Judge's List is how UDE believes the game should work, the Official rulings posted to the website are what Konami has approved to be posted as "Official". Thus Konami is the one who has been strict regarding the "Official" status of rulings. In their eyes UDE's rulings are much like what Masterwoo stated, rulings of the local Judges, and as such are neither official nor to be used for extrapolation to show how other effects operate.

 

[Jason_C]

I'd say:

1. Posted Rulings
2. Card Text
3. Judges List

We always have that BKSS thingy

I'd like to point out tha the discrepency between card text and posted rulings is theoretically non-existent. If the UDE errata page were done properly, all cards would do exactly what they say, and official posted rulings wouldn't be necessary.

With that said, like Anthony pointed out, we just don't have good enough translations for that to work.

Arbitrary side note: Is it not "Judges' List"? Because I keep seeing "Judges List" and "Judge's List". If the root "Judge" is in the plural possessive form as would seem to apply, it ought to be "Judges' List".

 

[skey23]

Arbitrary side note: Is it not "Judges' List"? Because I keep seeing "Judges List" and "Judge's List". If the root "Judge" is in the plural possessive form as would seem to apply, it ought to be "Judges' List".

The Judge List is a single entity. It's not possessive or plural or anything. It's the Judge List.

 

[John Danker]

....and, there is more than one list for judges.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'd say:

1. Posted Rulings
2. Card Text
3. Judges List

We always have that BKSS thingy

Well, generally your going to go by the card text first. Then the rulings will override anything written in the text. Then the Judges List will override the rulings. Which is why I say, it doesn't make sense for them to say the rulings are official and the Judges List is not, when the Judges List ends up being the final word every time.

 

[Jason_C]

The Judge List (thanks Skey) cannot under any circumstances over-ride the card text or rulings.

If you need a reminder of that, go back to the Master Monk thread.

For that matter, you could go back to the Mind Crush thread.

 

[skey23]

The Judge List (thanks Skey) cannot under any circumstances over-ride the card text or rulings.

I beg to differ....
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9336#9336

I quote this section:
"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]We are going to request the following card errata. Unfortunately, we can’t put these up as official errata on the web page until Konami OK’s it. Fortunately, we can pass this information along to you with this statement: Consider these to be the way the cards are played. (Official errata or not.)"

That is UDE using the Judge List to override the UDE FAQs.
[/font]

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

I beg to differ....
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=9336#9336
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
That is UDE using the Judge List to override the UDE FAQs.
[/font]

Not at all.

That is the Judge List saying that:
-Konami's Official Rulings are correct, and the Text is incorrect.
Or
-Konami's official Japanese text is correct, and the English text is incorrect.
(or both)

No matter what the case, the Official ruling is from Konami.

 

[Maruno]

The Judge List is a single entity. It's not possessive or plural or anything. It's the Judge List.

Bzzt. It's a List for a group of Judges. It's the Judges' List (plural possessive, as Jason says).

 

[John Danker]

Darn near everything overrides the card text...as the translations are horrid! If you go by the card text over the judge list...if you go literally by the card text....you're asking for a heck of a lot of trouble.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Darn near everything overrides the card text...as the translations are horrid! If you go by the card text over the judge list...if you go literally by the card text....you're asking for a heck of a lot of trouble.

Depends what you mean by literally. Not just in yugioh, it's not proper to assume things to be absolutely "precise."

If a ruling makes the text look unprecise, then certainly it can be used, (even if it comes from the Judge List)

Example:
Text: Tribute monsters on the field.
Ruling: Only Tribute monsters on your side of the field

If you tribute monsters on your side of the field (ruling), you ARE tributing monsters on the field (according to the text).

So the text is "Accurate" just not precise.

On the other hand:
Text: If this card is tributed gain 2000 LP
Ruling: When this card is destroyed by Ring of Destruction, Decrese Both player life points, then increase the 2000 LP.

Because it suggests the text is "inaccurate", one or the other has to be wrong, and this case its most likely the ruling is wrong.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Spin it whatever way you feel comfortable with, it still boils down to the same thing. The Judges List still ends up being the final say on non-Japanese TCG matters.

 

[masterwoo0]

Spin it whatever way you feel comfortable with, it still boils down to the same thing. The Judges List still ends up being the final say on non-Japanese TCG matters.

And that's what it really all comes down to. Unless someone has a faster way of getting Konami to respond to Ruling type questions, we either rely on the Judge List, and "wait" to see if they are proven wrong by an official Konami answer, or, we wait for Konami to officially answer (which could be "never"). In which case, how do we resolve questions in the meantime, if the Judge List is not considered "official"?

That would mean that any and all answers given from the Judge List are suspect and cannot be used in Tournament's.