Legendary Jujitsu Master vs. Drillroid
- Thread starter Bill
- Start date
Alrighty then, based off the latest information and rulings given to us in the Shadow of Infinity rulings, this answer is now incorrect. Since the term 'battle' has now been defined as entering Damage Calculation.
If a "Drillroid" attacks a Defense Position "Legendary Jujitsu Master", face-up or face-down, it will not be sent back to the top of the deck because 'battle' did not occur since Damage Calculation was never reached.
Let's look at text and rulings to support this shall we!...lol....
"Legendary Jujitsu Master" - "A monster that battles with this Defense Position card is returned to the top of the owner's Deck at the end of the Damage Step."
"Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" - "This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by sending "Elemental Hero Bubbleman" on your side of the field and "Metamorphosis" in your hand to the Graveyard. This card's name is treated as "Elemental Hero Bubbleman" while it is face-up on the field. Destroy an opponent's monster that battles this card at the end of the Damage Step."
I have bolded the relevant text.
And here's the ruling that supports this:
"If your Defense Position "Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" is attacked by "Drillroid", damage calculation is not conducted, so "Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" did not "battle" and its effect will not activate."
We might want to get this word out to everybody...lol.
If a "Drillroid" attacks a Defense Position "Legendary Jujitsu Master", face-up or face-down, it will not be sent back to the top of the deck because 'battle' did not occur since Damage Calculation was never reached.
Let's look at text and rulings to support this shall we!...lol....
"Legendary Jujitsu Master" - "A monster that battles with this Defense Position card is returned to the top of the owner's Deck at the end of the Damage Step."
"Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" - "This card cannot be Normal Summoned or Set. This card cannot be Special Summoned except by sending "Elemental Hero Bubbleman" on your side of the field and "Metamorphosis" in your hand to the Graveyard. This card's name is treated as "Elemental Hero Bubbleman" while it is face-up on the field. Destroy an opponent's monster that battles this card at the end of the Damage Step."
I have bolded the relevant text.
And here's the ruling that supports this:
"If your Defense Position "Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" is attacked by "Drillroid", damage calculation is not conducted, so "Elemental Hero Neo Bubbleman" did not "battle" and its effect will not activate."
We might want to get this word out to everybody...lol.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
It was my understanding that you still entered the Damage Step, and that you just didnt calculate the damage that would be necessary to determine whether the monster would or wouldnt be destroyed. We already know that using the Dreamsprite example, it forces it to actually calculate Damage, so therefore you must be in the Damage Step in order to do that.
Besides, there is no other way to say "when 2 monsters come into contact during the Battle Phase". I think the use of "Battle" is just a arbitrary word used to describe the action taking place, otherwise, they could just as well have said, "attacks", but then that would mean that in order to prevent the attacking monster from returning to the top of the deck, the attack would have to be negated.
I think the relevant thing is that the monster is destroyed by "effect" and not "Battle". regardless, so its not that Damage Calculation defines "battle", its the way the monster is destroyed that defines whether it battled or not.
Like Ryu Kokki vs Warriors. They Battle, but the monster is destroyed AFTER the Damage Step by effect, so even if the Damage was 0, the Warrior would still be destroyed.
Besides, there is no other way to say "when 2 monsters come into contact during the Battle Phase". I think the use of "Battle" is just a arbitrary word used to describe the action taking place, otherwise, they could just as well have said, "attacks", but then that would mean that in order to prevent the attacking monster from returning to the top of the deck, the attack would have to be negated.
I think the relevant thing is that the monster is destroyed by "effect" and not "Battle". regardless, so its not that Damage Calculation defines "battle", its the way the monster is destroyed that defines whether it battled or not.
Like Ryu Kokki vs Warriors. They Battle, but the monster is destroyed AFTER the Damage Step by effect, so even if the Damage was 0, the Warrior would still be destroyed.
Ok, but the ruling I quoted, and others from SOI for that matter, clearly state that since Damage Calculation is not conducted, the monster did not 'battle'. How can that not be any clearererer? It has nothing to do with the Damage Step, only Damage Calculation.
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
But then, the card text can't be assumed to be completely accurate,
"battles with this defense position monster" might really mean "attacks this defense position monster."
Although it should be ruled like Neo Bubbleman for the time being, it should need an official answer.
"battles with this defense position monster" might really mean "attacks this defense position monster."
Although it should be ruled like Neo Bubbleman for the time being, it should need an official answer.
John Danker
Administrator
John Williams asked this question on the L3 list, here was Dan's reply....
When does LJM effect activate? during damage calculation?
LJM vs Drillroid. Since he destroys before damage calc, does LJM's
effect activate?
----------------------------------------------
If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" in Defense Position is attacked by
"Drillroid" (or "Sasuke Samurai #4", etc.) its effect does not activate.
Damage calculation must occur.
Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment
When does LJM effect activate? during damage calculation?
LJM vs Drillroid. Since he destroys before damage calc, does LJM's
effect activate?
----------------------------------------------
If "Legendary Jujitsu Master" in Defense Position is attacked by
"Drillroid" (or "Sasuke Samurai #4", etc.) its effect does not activate.
Damage calculation must occur.
Dan Scheidegger
Jr. Game Designer
Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG R&D
Upper Deck Entertainment
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
And there ya go.
Actually this is really good for a case study because I was going over some of the finer details of the entire battle phase with some Monarchs and outlining where certain effects activate along the substep path and how they can have drastic effects. Its amazing at how those 4 different substeps can have drastic outcomes based on the monster involved 8^D
Actually this is really good for a case study because I was going over some of the finer details of the entire battle phase with some Monarchs and outlining where certain effects activate along the substep path and how they can have drastic effects. Its amazing at how those 4 different substeps can have drastic outcomes based on the monster involved 8^D
Amazing and headache inducing. It's hard keeping track of when monster's effects come into play vs. others. Like, substitute D.D. Warrior Lady in place of Drillroid and it's completey different logic. Same goes for Mystic Swordsman LV2, Airknight Parshath, Sangan, etc. *goes to bang head against wall*Dillie-O said:
Before Chainsaw Insect came out, Legendary Jujitsu Master would activate. Now it doesn't because Chainsaw Insect defined what you consider for a monster to be in battle or not.
I think there was a really weak indication of this with the "destroyed as a result of battle" monsters, but never was really looked into.
I think there was a really weak indication of this with the "destroyed as a result of battle" monsters, but never was really looked into.
Umm, Legendary Jujitsu Master doesn't activate if Drillroid attacks it. Reason for this is because of the Drillroid v.s. Chainsaw Insect ruling. A monster is considered to have been in battle when it suffers or inflicts damage to/from another monster.
Drillroid never inflicts damage to a monster - it destroys it with an effect.
Think of it like this.
If I was going to punch you and then something came along to prevent it from ever happening then I never fought you now did I? This same logic applies here as well.
Legendary Jujitsu Master will not activate when Drillroid attacks it. Skipping Damage Calculations means two monsters never conducted a battle.
Drillroid never inflicts damage to a monster - it destroys it with an effect.
Think of it like this.
If I was going to punch you and then something came along to prevent it from ever happening then I never fought you now did I? This same logic applies here as well.
Legendary Jujitsu Master will not activate when Drillroid attacks it. Skipping Damage Calculations means two monsters never conducted a battle.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
I mentioned something earlier to the effect that it matters "when" the monster is destroyed, not how. Ryu Kokki can Battle a defense position monster with a higher defense than attack, and still destroy it at the end of the Damage Step by its effect if it is a Warrior. So does that mean that because it eventually destroyed it by effect they didnt battle? Of course they did because they went through Damage Calculation.Tkwiget said:
So simply saying that a monster destroyed another monster by effect doesnt exactly explain whether it Battled or not.
Ryu Kokki went through Damage Calculations. Drillroid didn't. There for Legendary Jujitsu Master won't activate because monsters going through Damage Calculations is considered to have been in battle.
Read the Chainsaw Insect ruling dealing with Drillroid.
Read the Chainsaw Insect ruling dealing with Drillroid.
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
I know what the ruling says. I am merely attempting to state that a monster can still do zero damage and destroy a monster by effect after having gone through Damage Calculation.
The statement
"Drillroid never inflicts damage to a monster - it destroys it with an effect"
is incomplete and could suggest that zero damage inflicted is the same as "not calculating" damage.
The statement
"Drillroid never inflicts damage to a monster - it destroys it with an effect"
is incomplete and could suggest that zero damage inflicted is the same as "not calculating" damage.
All right, I'm confused.
So when a monster like Drillroid battles another, something like this happens:
TP declares his Drillroid attacks a face-down monster... neither player wants to activate something and damage step MUST be entered. The monster is flipped face-up, destroyed and the players are in the damage step, but it is considered that there was no battle...
So, the way Drillroid works is: his attack completely stops when damage step is reached and his effect triggers, right?
And LJM also doesn't activate its effect against MS LV 2, right?
Strange...
So when a monster like Drillroid battles another, something like this happens:
TP declares his Drillroid attacks a face-down monster... neither player wants to activate something and damage step MUST be entered. The monster is flipped face-up, destroyed and the players are in the damage step, but it is considered that there was no battle...
So, the way Drillroid works is: his attack completely stops when damage step is reached and his effect triggers, right?
And LJM also doesn't activate its effect against MS LV 2, right?
Strange...
masterwoo0
NINJA4LIFE
You dont sound so confused...Dr Sin said:
Drillroid causes the attacked monster to flip face-up. If it has a flip effect, it will still activate, and if it has an effect that triggers causing the Damage Calculation to be stopped, such as Adhesive Explosive, then it will also activate at that time.
Once you have entered the Damage Step, Drillroid will "normally" prevent Damage Calculation from being performed, immediately skipping to the "destroy and send to Graveyard" part of the Damage Step.
Since Damage was not calculated to determine the outcome of the monster, and it was destroyed by effect instead of Battle Damage, it is NOT considered to have Battled, as zero damage was calculated during the Battle, or used as a determining factor in the destruction of the monster.
As far as Sasuke Samurai and Mystic Swordsman LV2 are concerned, the monster is destroyed immediately, without the Damage Step being entered.
Dillie-O
Council of Heroes
I was going over this with some Monarchs a while back and this is how I attempted to explain things, hopefully this will help...
***
Okay, so the Battle Phase consists of the following steps:
1) Declare a monster that will attack
2) Target a monster on your opponent's side of the field to attack
3) Activate and resolve quick-play spell cards and/or traps. If both monsters are still eligible for battle (IE no Sakuretsu's, Book of Moon's, defenders changed) then we proceed to the Damage Step.
4) Damage Step - Broken down into 4 substeps.
4a) If the targeted monster is face down, flip it into face up defense.
4b) Calculate and apply damage.
4c) Resolve any effects.
4d) Send Appropriate monsters to the graveyard.
Now looking at this model, there are several little nuances where monster effects kick in.
In a classic Man-Eater Bug scenario, its effect is triggered during 4a, but it won't activate and resolve until 4c.
In a Mystic Swordsman LV2 example, its effect activates during 4a, before the monster is flipped face up.
In a Drillroid example, its effect activates during 4b, effectively eliminating 4b altogether. The monster is simply classified as destroyed, though we still have to resolve any effects that were flipped up.
In a Reflect Bounder example, its effect activates during 4b. Bounder will inflict its effect damage before battle damage applied to the Appropriate.
Now think about Dark Ruler vs. Spirit Reaper and see where those effects play in 8^D
***
Okay, so the Battle Phase consists of the following steps:
1) Declare a monster that will attack
2) Target a monster on your opponent's side of the field to attack
3) Activate and resolve quick-play spell cards and/or traps. If both monsters are still eligible for battle (IE no Sakuretsu's, Book of Moon's, defenders changed) then we proceed to the Damage Step.
4) Damage Step - Broken down into 4 substeps.
4a) If the targeted monster is face down, flip it into face up defense.
4b) Calculate and apply damage.
4c) Resolve any effects.
4d) Send Appropriate monsters to the graveyard.
Now looking at this model, there are several little nuances where monster effects kick in.
In a classic Man-Eater Bug scenario, its effect is triggered during 4a, but it won't activate and resolve until 4c.
In a Mystic Swordsman LV2 example, its effect activates during 4a, before the monster is flipped face up.
In a Drillroid example, its effect activates during 4b, effectively eliminating 4b altogether. The monster is simply classified as destroyed, though we still have to resolve any effects that were flipped up.
In a Reflect Bounder example, its effect activates during 4b. Bounder will inflict its effect damage before battle damage applied to the Appropriate.
Now think about Dark Ruler vs. Spirit Reaper and see where those effects play in 8^D