Level Limit Area A - Lockdown or no?

Dillie-O

Dillie-O

Council of Heroes
Hey all,

This came up in the tactics thread over this card, so I wanted to move it here for further discussion.

Level Limit - Area A
Continuous Trap

All face-up Level 3 or lower monsters on the field are changed to Attack Position and remain in Attack Position while this card is active.

So does the "remain" portion of this text prevent you from manually changing Dream Clown into defense position once its been put into attack position?

I know LLAB allows for a manual position change, to which it would immediately go back to defense position, but LLAA seems to me to have an added restriction placed onit?

Help please. 8^D
 
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I think it merely states that all Level 3 and below monsters will not be able to switch "back" to defense. They are not locked into a "Attack Position Only" type situation. Cards that clearly have such a restriction are stated as such.

Swords of Concealing Light
Gravity Axe - Grarl
Curse of Anubis

And I really dont see this as a card that makes that, at least "textually", clear enough to say that you cannot change them to defense to activate a triggered effect.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I think it merely states that all Level 3 and below monsters will not be able to switch "back" to defense. They are not locked into a "Attack Position Only" type situation. Cards that clearly have such a restriction are stated as such.

Swords of Concealing Light
Gravity Axe - Grarl
Curse of Anubis

And I really dont see this as a card that makes that, at least "textually", clear enough to say that you cannot change them to defense to activate a triggered effect.
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...in other words: No.

-pssvr
 
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masterwoo0 said:
I think it merely states that all Level 3 and below monsters will not be able to switch "back" to defense. They are not locked into a "Attack Position Only" type situation. Cards that clearly have such a restriction are stated as such.

Swords of Concealing Light
Gravity Axe - Grarl
Curse of Anubis

And I really dont see this as a card that makes that, at least "textually", clear enough to say that you cannot change them to defense to activate a triggered effect.
Click to expand...

I think I'll have to disagree on this one, until proven wrong by Mr. Danker :icon_mrgr

"Remain in attack position" seems extremely clear to me. In order for a monster to "remain in attack position", it would not be able to switch to defense position, either face-up or face-down, for any reason.

Of course, YGO English card text is frequently mistranslated, and if you look at some of the unofficial translations of EEN-JP060, there is no such "remains" clause. I would also like to see what the JERP has to say, but alas, I don't speak Japanese.

If judging, and without a specific ruling to back it up, I would take the card text literally. And in this case literally means "remains in", which means cannot be switched from (to me, at least).

edit: Dillie, have you asked this on the Judge List yet? I think this is one they would answer quickly one way or another ...
 
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I just took a look at the text on my SD Level Limit area - B. Interesting. Click the auto-link and check that out. Has it been errata-ed? Because I was thinking LL-AB used to read almost exactly the same as A. But now it is different. Would this suggest that the wording on the two cards is intentionally dissimilar? Because, if so, I'd have to go with the idea that if you could change the position of monsters manually, A would be worded like B.

Not that I've ever understood manual position changes anyway...

-pssvr
 
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pssvr said:
I just took a look at the text on my SD Level Limit area - B. Interesting. Click the auto-link and check that out. Has it been errata-ed? Because I was thinking LL-AB used to read almost exactly the same as A. But now it is different. Would this suggest that the wording on the two cards is intentionally dissimilar? Because, if so, I'd have to go with the idea that if you could change the position of monsters manually, A would be worded like B.

Not that I've ever understood manual position changes anyway...

-pssvr
Click to expand...

You're quite right my friend. The original text of Level Limit - Area B is as follows (AST-092/First Edition):

All face-up Level 4 or higher monsters on the field are changed to Defense Position and remain in Defense Position as long as this card is active.

*Extremely* similar indeed. Looks like I'm going to be wrong on this one, huh? :D
 
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So does the "remain" portion of this text prevent you from manually changing Dream Clown into defense position once its been put into attack position?
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Precisely, manual changes are not allowed. Changes by card effect will still work.

However, even with an effect change, depending on the effect they will switch back into ATK by LLAA because it is a continuous effect.

Example: Zero Gravity will change the monsters, and then LLAA will change them back after ZG resolves, because ZG is a one-shot change.
 
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novastar said:
Precisely, manual changes are not allowed. Changes by effect effect will still work.

However, even with an effect change, depending on the effect they will switch back into ATK by LLAA because it is a continuous effect.

Example: Zero Gravity will change the monsters, and then LLAA will change them back after ZG resolves, because ZG is a one-shot change.
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That is TOTALLY inconsistent with Level Limit - Area B's ruling!! The text of Level Limit - Area B was changed mainly because of this very argument. It does not prevent manual position changes. Only "permanent" changes in position once it is manually moved.

Im quite sure there is no difference in either of these cards as they both have the same basic effect, with the exception of one forces defense and the other forces attack.

I would not doubt that sometime in the future Level Limit - Area A will be changed to reflect the text as identical as Area B, changing "remain in" to "are in".
 
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You mean this ruling?

"All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect."

lol, that does not prove you can manually change the Battle Position.

If you can show me a Judge's List quote that specifically states what you are saying, then i interpret this to mean mean "effect change". The reason for the text change is because the previous wording is slightly misleading.

Being able to manually change them is completey inconsistant with it being a Continuous Effect.
 
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novastar said:
You mean this ruling?

"All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect."

lol, that does not prove you can manually change the Battle Position.

If you can show me a Judge's List quote that specifically states what you are saying, then i interpret this to mean mean "effect change". The reason for the text change is because the previous wording is slightly misleading.

Being able to manually change them is completey inconsistant with it being a Continuous Effect.
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True. Remember how with cards like TER and stuff, cannot be changed actually means cannot be manually changed. So I guess you're right: That ruling only applies to effect changes.

Now the question becomes: How long has that ruling been there and we've never debated it before?

-pssvr
 
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novastar said:
You mean this ruling?

"All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect."

lol, that does not prove you can manually change the Battle Position.
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Unfortunately this has become a Tennis Match, as it ALSO doesnt prove that you cant. If I have to provide a link to where I can prove my point of view, that would mean that there isnt one to support yours.

Again, this is the current ruling for Level Limit - Area B since it's text was changed. I would think that if it was limited to "effect changes", there would be a indication of such in the ruling, other than, "You can change". Why not say it,

"You can change Battle Position by using either Spell, Trap, or Monster Effect."

That to me would indicate that a manual change is not included.

Thousand-Eyes Restrict states pretty clearly that you cannot change Battle Position. That means you cannot change it Manually.

Level Limit - Area A only says that even if you do change it, it will not stay in defense, as it will return to attack position regardless, after you have changed the position.

Does a Rubber Band not return to it's normal shape when stretched? Would that indicate that it can't change its shape, or must it always remain the same shape?

Of course it can change shape, and will normally return to its original shape when released. So, in essence, it still remains the same as it was prior to being stretched.

And, if Level Limit - Area A were an absolute, nothing would change the monsters position as it would stand to reason that "Remain in Attack" would prevent any effect from allowing a change.
 
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novastar said:
You mean this ruling?

"All Level 4 or higher monsters face-up on the field after "Level Limit - Area B" resolves will be in Defense Position. You can change the Battle Position of a Level 4 or higher monster, but it will immediately be changed back to Defense Position because of "Level Limit - Area B"'s effect."

lol, that does not prove you can manually change the Battle Position.

If you can show me a Judge's List quote that specifically states what you are saying, then i interpret this to mean mean "effect change". The reason for the text change is because the previous wording is slightly misleading.

Being able to manually change them is completey inconsistant with it being a Continuous Effect.
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That completely destroys the Crass Clown combo that even I thought about before others started running it. So far most had been interpreting it to mean manual changes.
 
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Yes he is. And again, there is nothing stating that you cannot perform a manual change anywhere. Every card that says you cannot change battle position SAYS THAT!

Every card that I have seen that says you can only change with effect, also makes it clear, like that stupid monster card (Little-Winguard) that changes battle position at End Phase of turn. Since when have you been able to change a monsters position manually at End Phase?? You cant even do that with Giant Orc or Goblin Attack Force.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Unfortunately this has become a Tennis Match, as it ALSO doesnt prove that you cant. If I have to provide a link to where I can prove my point of view, that would mean that there isnt one to support yours.
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I am going by precedence. Also, unfortunately the JERP doesn't have anything extra to add as well.

Unless the text change is an actual change the the workings of the effect itself, rather than simply a clarification, then i'm 100% positive on it. It works exactly like Final Attack Orders as well as LLAA.

Whenever an effect states "battle positions cannot be changed" it is always refering to manual changes, unless it specifically states "by card effect" or something similar to that.

I can see them wanting to change the text, because "battle positions cannot be changed" can be misleading to players, making them think that under no circumstances can the positions be changed... which of course is not true.

Ask on the board, and clarify on the others while were at it to.
 
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hehe, for what its worth, I dropped a post to the judges board earlier this morning. I seem to be the monkey wrench of rulings, always finding the crazy ones 8^D Hopefully I worded the question well enough for them. I seem to be about 30% on the responses from them. And after you ask a dumb question that you forget to check the rulings for first, I think they ignore you 8^D
 
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