Nightmare Wheel vs Spirit Reaper

B

Big Oldprankster

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Player A has Spirit Reaper face down defense position. Player B activates Nightmare Wheel targeting face down Spirit Reaper(Spirit Reaper will not be destroyed because of being face down). Next Player B activates Swords of Revealing Light flipping player A's face down Spirit Reaper. Is Spirit Reaper now destroyed because of its own effect?
 
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I won't disagree with you, but where does the term "continously targets" come from. Can you name another card that contiously targets? This all came about from a discussion with a higher level judge than myself. He was saying it was not destroyed because Nightmare Wheel does not continously target and their is no such defined term. He said Nightmares effect is continously being applied which was different from targeting, so Reaper would not be destroyed. Targeting happens at a specific moment and then it is done. Nightmare Wheel and Call of the Haunted are not equip cards. I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't say you are correct either.
 
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I completely understand where you're coming from.

I offer this, which I'm sure you've already seen, as further support.

From the UDE FAQ:
"[Re: Spirit Reaper] If "Spirit Reaper" is Special Summoned with "Premature Burial" or "Call of the Haunted", "Spirit Reaper" is destroyed after it is Special Summoned because it is targeted by an effect."

The 'initial' targeting was done while "Spirit Reaper" was in the Graveyard. So, by the explanation given to you by the other person, then this ruling would be incorrect.
 
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You are correct in your statement, but here is the rest of his argument:
"Spirit Reaper" is only destroyed by its own effect if it is face-up on the field when the effect designating it as a target activates, AND after the effect designating it as a target resolves.

So he is saying Call of the Haunted does do its targeting in the graveyard but Spirit Reaper's effect does not happen until after resolution of the efect that targeted it resolves on the field.
 
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Big Oldprankster said:
I won't disagree with you, but where does the term "continously targets" come from. Can you name another card that contiously targets? This all came about from a discussion with a higher level judge than myself. He was saying it was not destroyed because Nightmare Wheel does not continously target and their is no such defined term. He said Nightmares effect is continously being applied which was different from targeting, so Reaper would not be destroyed. Targeting happens at a specific moment and then it is done. Nightmare Wheel and Call of the Haunted are not equip cards. I am not saying you are wrong, but I can't say you are correct either.
Click to expand...

How about this:
"Nightmare Wheel" is NOT destroyed if the monster is flipped face-down. "Nightmare Wheel" continues to target the monster, inflict damage, and prevent the monster from attacking or changing battle position.
Click to expand...
 
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I also agree with you on this, but look at the text on the errata page:

Nightmare Wheel
(Pharaonic Guardian, Dark Revelation vol.1)
Select 1 monster on your opponent's side of the field. As long as this card remains face-up on the field, the selected monster cannot attack or change its battle position. During each of your Standby Phases, this card inflicts 500 points of damage to your opponent's Life Points. When the selected monster is removed from the field, destroy this card.


Do you agree the word "select" means target? If so, the rest of the times it is mentioned is past tense - "selected". This being the case ultimately meaning it is not continious but refering to the specific time in the past it did its targeting, not the it is still targeting. I know this is a stretch, buit it is very hard for me discount the oppinion of this judge.
 
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pssvr said:
And how could premie destroy reaper unless it was contiunously tagretting? Cards that continuously taget: Equip cards, continuous traps such as Nightmare Wheel and Spellbinding Circle, "binding" cards like Invitation to a Dark Sleep.

-pssvr
Click to expand...

This is discounted by my above post noting targeting AND resolution of the effect. Then Spirit Reapers effect happens of destroying itself. This is why Premature and Call can not bring back a reaper.
 
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I get what you are saying, but the ruling that anthonyj brought up kind of clarifies that, despite having selected (or targeted) during activation, that another portion of Nightmare Wheel continues to target the monster in order to determine when that monster is removed from the field, and Nightmare Wheel destroys itself.

there is initial targeting to initiate the effect and inflict damage, and there is continuous targeting to see if the monster previously selected remains on the field.
 
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I can't remember off the top of my head the cards involved but I seem to remember a scenario with Premature Burial and a monster that can't be destroyed by cards that target...the Premature gets destroyed but the monster remains on the field of course.....but that doesn't mean that Premature Burial *continuously" targets......though this may lead us down a path that will shed some light on the subject of continuous targeting. (obviously just thinking out loud)

I've never heard the term *continuous targeting" either but it brings up interesting points and a new direction for study....thanks for bringing it up.
 
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I believe the only way to satisfy this in my mind is to send it in to the judge list. As I mentioned earlier it is very hard for me to not believe the judge I was discussing this with. His arguement about the term continous targeting is still is in my head. Without putting words in his mouth, I guess he believes there is no such thing as "continous targeting". Targeting happens at a specific instance. The rest of the time it is only applying its effect. Again I offer up the question of naming a card that continously targets.
 
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Did I miss it or did someone mention that when Premature Burial targets Spirit Reaper it's destroyed when it's special summoned to the field? Obviously Premature Burial targets Spirit Reaper in the graveyard....but it's still destroyed once it's special summoned showing me that it continuously targets.....though there is no such term (yet) I'm aware of.

If Premature Burial doesn't continuously target then Spirit Reaper should stay on the field should it not?....or...the ruling is incorrect to begin with which isn't out of the realm of possibility either.
 
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How hard is it to believe that some effects do a "Self-Sustainment" to check for their ability to remain active on the field?

Its not always on all equip cards that they should be destroyed when the monster they are equipped to is removed from the field, but we know that it no longer has a reason to remain active.

Continuous Effects that have the "infinity" symbol, must have it for a reason other than, "It remains on the field past its activation".

What causes that? Is it explicitly the symbol, or the effect combined?

Nightmare Wheel states that when the selected (yes its past tense, only because once it's selected, do you have to keep selecting it each turn???) monster is removed from the field, meaning "face-down" doesnt qualify, Nightmare Wheel is destroyed.

Again, how does it know to destroy itself unless it continually checks the status of the selected card.

Q: Hmmm, is the card I am inflicting damage from still on the field... Let me check.

A1: It's face-down, but still there.

A2: It was tributed. I guess my job is over.

It's clearly not the player that does the check, although we know in reality, can a card do it by themselves? The "Conditional Effect" states that in order to remain active, there must be a card selected continually, without break.

How can that not be a Continuous Targeting Effect?
 
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John Danker said:
Did I miss it or did someone mention that when Premature Burial targets Spirit Reaper it's destroyed when it's special summoned to the field? Obviously Premature Burial targets Spirit Reaper in the graveyard....but it's still destroyed once it's special summoned showing me that it continuously targets.....though there is no such term (yet) I'm aware of.

If Premature Burial doesn't continuously target then Spirit Reaper should stay on the field should it not?....or...the ruling is incorrect to begin with which isn't out of the realm of possibility either.
Click to expand...

As I metioned before:
"Spirit Reaper" is only destroyed by its own effect if it is face-up on the field when the effect designating it as a target activates, AND after the effect designating it as a target resolves.
So in essence Spirit Reaper is destroying itself after it comes to the field and Premature and Call of the Haunted RESOLVE, not from "continous targeting". I was hoping you had input on this question John as I regard your oppinion very high also. Squid, anthonyj, and all others who have returned on this question: I am not saying your oppinions are not important or insignificant. I have personally worked with John in the past and definitely look up to his abilities and train of thought.
 
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Good point about resolution <nodding> The problem here with sending it to the judge's list is that you seldom see them explaining complex mechanics questions. The best we can hope for is "No, there is no such thing as continuous targeting" or "Yes, continous spell and trap card continue to target" Even that though would at least solve the question at hand.

It's a valid question and one that could help enlighten us on a couple of issues. Send it in, what have we got to lose? Worst case scenario we know as much as we do right now.

*EDIT*

Doohhhh!

Ruling from Nightmare Wheel

"Nightmare Wheel" is NOT destroyed if the monster is flipped face-down. "Nightmare Wheel" continues to target the monster, inflict damage, and prevent the monster from attacking or changing battle position


When will I learn to read all the way through the rulings before making comment? <laffin at myself>
 
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If Premature Burial, as an "Equip Spell Card" does not target the selected Monster continually, then it no longer remains on the field past the initial activation turn, and becomes a Normal Spell Card.

Anything else changes the mechanics of perhaps TENS, maybe HUNDREDS of cards and I'd say it's time for me to quit being involved in such a chaotic and disruptive game that changes course at whim.
 
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Don't do that this one is really in my opinion more of a poorly worded ruling screwing things up and not the card or game mechanics. Spirit Reaper itself doesn't say anything about having to be face up at activation and resolution. That was put forth as a ruling to try to describe the proper and improper application of the self destruct. Obviously this is in many ways erroneous because there are cards that "target" continuously by their very nature (all equip cards) some effect monsters, and some traps. So it is the interpretation of the "has to be face up when the effect is activated and when it resolves" comment that is tripping up the opinion on this matter. I would suggest from the many rulings which prove this line of Reasoning faulty it is a simple misunderstanding produced by reading too much into a poorly worded ruling.
 
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