Penalty Question(s)

[Tkwiget]

Alright, just wondering about this. I have two specific situations that I'm thinking of that may or may not occur enough to merit knowledge of so I'll assume that it does. Assume both situations are following all YGO policy documents.


Situation #1:

Note: Both players in this situation are regular regional players.

Player A and Player B sit down at their tournament table and stuffle up their decks and present it towards one another. Player A requests that Player B count out his Side Board and Player B counts out 14 cards. Player A calls a judge over for a ruling since the decks were presented to be legal decks.

My Ruling: I would give Player B a Game Loss on the grounds that he/she is an experienced player had has experience in dealing with tournament policies in the past.

Situation #2:

Note: Assume only one of the two players in this situation is a regular regional player with experience and knowledge in tournament policies. Player B is the inexperienced player -- think of someone playing in their first regional.

Player A and Player B sit down at their tournament table and stuffle up their decks and present it towards one another. Player A requests that Player B count out his Side Board and Player B counts out 14 cards. Player A calls a judge over for a ruling since the decks were presented to be legal decks.

My Ruling: I would give Player B a minor warning on the grounds that they're inexperienced of tournament policies and potentially tournament procedures as well. With this in my mind I would find it a fair and logical ruling to let the inexperienced player off with a minor warning and explain to the person why I reduced the penalty and what could happen if the penalty is issued again to him.


I could be head judging an event in a few months and I'm going to have to brush up on my player management and penalty situations. It's something that I really haven't focused on like I have with game mechancs.

 

[densetsu_x]

Actually the penalty should be the same in both cases (game loss) since it is a Regionals and if you are playing in a bigger event you as the player have more expectations upon you. Not knowing the rules isn't an excuse at premier events. After all, you drive 65 thinking that's the speed limit is 65 when in fact is 55 will usually still get you a ticket.

 

[Tkwiget]

Excellent metaphor.

Apparently I'm not as good at assigning penalties as I thought. @_@

 

[Digital Jedi]

This may see, like a silly question. But I feel like I should ask. Isn't the idea of counting the decks before starting the duel, to prevent game losses and the like from happening in the first place? Say, for example, that 15th card was stuck in the Deck Box or shuffled into the Main Deck. Or are these examples presuming that the player showed up with 14 cards in his Side Deck?

 

[densetsu_x]

We're presuming that they only had 14 cards in the side deck. If say 14 were counted, but the 15th was found in the deck box (meaning that it was valid but just presented wrong) that would warrent a warning.

Keep in mind though, that at a premier event you will usually only have time to read through all the decklists and do spot checks on a handful of them (like those who only wrote up 14 cards in the side deck or 39 cards in the main deck). If someone wrote up a list that showed 40 valid main deck cards and 15 valid side deck cards yet they only have 39/14, unless a check is totally random or they top 8, you're not likely to catch it unless an opponent asks for a count.

 

[HorusMaster]

Or are these examples presuming that the player showed up with 14 cards in his Side Deck?

I would hope that the 14 card side deck was caught at the beginning BEFORE gameplay started at check-in. There are times when during the excitement of playing that a player can accidentally shuffle the 15th card back into his main deck. Decks should be checked prior to start of match to insure legitimacy of the decks being used and that the main deck and side decks match the players decklist. But, that's just my opinion.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I would hope that the 14 card side deck was caught at the beginning BEFORE gameplay started at check-in. There are times when during the excitement of playing that a player can accidentally shuffle the 15th card back into his main deck. Decks should be checked prior to start of match to insure legitimacy of the decks being used and that the main deck and side decks match the players decklist. But, that's just my opinion.

Yes thay should, but that's hardly practical at a premier event where entries sometimes number in 50s to 100s or even more. Even then, mistakes can be made.

 

[John Danker]

I do have a note I feel it important to add here. Keep in mind that checking deck sheets is a "service" judges perfom and not a responsability. The responsability for a legal deck and deck sheet rests completely on the player.

Now if the players are obviously more experienced and / or older and of a reasonable age of responsability I'd issue the game loss.

That having been said, personally, I'm not going to issue an 8 year old kid who is at their first regional tournment a game loss for a 14 card side deck if their deck list shows 15 and that player has misplaced a card...and card #1 hasn't been played yet. I'm going to issue that child a warning, loan him the missing card if need be, thank the opposing player for their understanding and patience, ask the offending player to check their deck before they present their deck from this point on, and let play continue.

As judges we indeed are trying to keep the game fair. We're also there to teach those that are new, help people enjoy the game, and retain the clients (who are the players) as best we can. We are judges, that entails making judgement calls on occasion based on circumstance.

This is an interesting topic. It reminds me of a conversation I had recently about "Zero tolerance policies" I'm of the mindset that zero tolerance policies exist because people are afraid to make human judgement calls based on evidence and then take responsability for those decisions.

 

[Tkwiget]

The side boards are registered to be 15 cards. They showed up with 15 card side boards and have progressed through the tournament without any problems thus far. That's what I was trying to get at and hoped you guys would assume that was the situation.

John, you've tought me that when presented with this kind of situation (or similar ones) that you should look at the factors that are playing a role in the situation. Age, skill level, player standings, and body language. It doesn't take a lot of reading of body language to determine if the kid is lying to you after you ask the question "Is this your first regional <insert name>?" and they seem rather nerves about what's going to happen -- usually it's fear of not getting to play or being in serious trouble.

I've been in an arguement about this very thing on another site. The person said (note he isn't even a judge or even know how to judge) that if a player breaks a rule of any kind of any severity, that the player in question should receive the approperiate penalty or punishment for their actions reguardless of age, skill level, player standings, and body language (unless it's questionable). To me that isn't necessarily fair. The whole point of the penalty guidelines are to give us a template of which to draw a since of punishment towards someone that deserves it for their actions.

If a player has accidently added one of their sided cards into their main without knowing it, you generally can tell by asking the person questions about it. Then if you can tell they didn't even know about it you can issue a warning and not a Game Loss -- if the error is found out before the game has even begun. That was something I was trying to explain to the person I was arguing with about it.

I most certainly will say that judging isn't as clear cut of a job as some of players in this game think.

 

[masterwoo0]

Considering the Match had started, but not progressed to drawing the cards yet, I don't see that it is practical to issue a Game Loss for a Illegal Side Deck. If the Deck contained 14 cards, and the 15th card cannot be located, then the Side Deck would not be used for that current Match, and a Warning should be issued, since the Side Deck cannot be used in the first game of the Match anyway, and it would not affect the 1st Game Outcome.

A Game Loss is kind of harsh for even an experienced player in just the first Match of a Regional, when both of the actual Duelist havent even drawn their first five cards yet. Anything can have happened inbetween a final check of a players Main and Side Deck. In rushing to stuff all cards back into the Deck Box, one of the cards could have inadvertantly caught the outside of the box and slid silently to the floor. It's not like a Yugioh Card makes a loud sound like a breaking glass when it drops, so it could easily be a unplanned omission on a single card.

Of course, if this same player who already has one warning for the infraction (and should be more mindful now of his whole Deck) comes up missing a card in a later round, or, his Main/Side Deck has a entirely "different" card that wasnt on his Deck List, well, now it goes up to Game/Match/DQ depending on the situation. But I think a Game Loss in the opening minutes of a 1st Round Match that hasn't even placed a single card in hand yet is over the top for this situation.

 

[Tkwiget]

Those were my thoughts exactly. I guess some players that like to win from penalties (such as the one I was arguing with on another site) need to learn something called "fair play." He made it seem like he looked towards getting his opponent a Game Loss as quickly as possible.

So what would be the potential punishment for someone trying to give another person a Game/Match Loss intentionally? I would consider this to be cheating in a way. If your looking to give your opponent a Game/Match Loss in purpose then you should deserve the same penalty for potential cheating.

This stuff I really need help understanding. It's fairly new material for me. =P

 

[densetsu_x]

But say it's in the middle of the tournament and you've had the illegal side deck all along. Just because it's the opening minutes of a match where no card has been played, that still means you've gone through several other matches with some form of an illegal deck.

 

[Tkwiget]

If the error wasn't discovered during that entire time, then you can't do anything about it. If the player did it intentionally and there's proof, that's cheating. If no proof, a Match Loss maybe? You can't do anything about a player going through several rounds with an illegal side deck if you don't even know about it until either the opponent of that player requests a side count, gets deck checked, or reaches Top 8.

In my examples, I thought I made it clear that the error just happened in that one round of the tournament and no others. It was a one time error for the player during that tournament.

 

[Digital Jedi]

But say it's in the middle of the tournament and you've had the illegal side deck all along. Just because it's the opening minutes of a match where no card has been played, that still means you've gone through several other matches with some form of an illegal deck.

You really have no way of knowing that he had an illegal Side Deck the enitre game. As Woo0 pointed out, the card could easily be lying on the floor somewhere, or in someone elses backpack, or heck, even shuffled into someone else's deck.

 

[masterwoo0]

But say it's in the middle of the tournament and you've had the illegal side deck all along. Just because it's the opening minutes of a match where no card has been played, that still means you've gone through several other matches with some form of an illegal deck.

As Tk stated, there basically is no way of knowing that I player intentionally kept his Side Deck at 14 cards for manipulation purposes during the Regional, unless he admits it. I went through a entire Tournament, got home, and found out I was missing 2 cards from my Side Deck. Now, in that particular Tournament, I only remember using my Side Deck once, and it was early. So how long was I missing those cards, and should I have "counted" my Side Deck each Duel/Match, even if I didnt use it??

There is reason to say yes, and had I done so, I wouldn't have lost a DCR D.D. Warrior Lady and a TP4 Morphing Jar, and additionally, I could have received a Illegal Deck Penalty at any time because of it. But in reality, it is something that can happen to all of us at any point of a Tourney as you rush to move from Table to Table.

Yes, there are cheaters out there. And they usually can't help but tell someone that they did in fact do what they are accused of, but rarely will a experienced cheater tell on himself to a Judge, and that is the part where you have to be fair and impartial with your dishing out of penalties.

 

[HorusMaster]

You really have no way of knowing that he had an illegal Side Deck the enitre game. As Woo0 pointed out, the card could easily be lying on the floor somewhere, or someone in elses backpack, or heck, even shuffled into someone else's deck.

Or as in my case at the Cyberdark Impact release here in Dallas, find that someone steals your cards when you turn away for a moment. At that release there were NUMEROUS people who ended up with missing cards, binders and decks because others were not fair minded and worked in teams to cheat and steal from kids. It happens and the circumstances should always be taken into account in situations where the side deck or main deck are missing cards that were originally listed.

 

[densetsu_x]

You really have no way of knowing that he had an illegal Side Deck the enitre game. As Woo0 pointed out, the card could easily be lying on the floor somewhere, or someone in elses backpack, or heck, even shuffled into someone else's deck.

But that's still my problem to deal with. Yes the judges are supposed to make adjustments to penalities based upon circumstances but it is in the guidelines itself that it is discouraged to make adjustments from the penalty guidelines since the goal was to provide consistancy. And again, premier events are different from the local tourny around the corner. Noone wants to give out penalties, but the players at these events are held to a higher accountability. It may not always be fair but if I have an illegal deck it could be simple forgetfulness, cards stolen, deliberate attempt at cheating, etc. How do you know exactly? In most cases you won't. But that's why the penalty guidelines were drawn up.

 

[masterwoo0]

But that's still my problem to deal with. Yes the judges are supposed to make adjustments to penalities based upon circumstances but it is in the guidelines itself that it is discouraged to make adjustments from the penalty guidelines since the goal was to provide consistancy. And again, premier events are different from the local tourny around the corner. Noone wants to give out penalties, but the players at these events are held to a higher accountability. It may not always be fair but if I have an illegal deck it could be simple forgetfulness, cards stolen, deliberate attempt at cheating, etc. How do you know exactly? In most cases you won't. But that's why the penalty guidelines were drawn up.

And again, a "penalty" doesnt have to be a Game Loss or above. It CAN be a Warning, and a attempt to repair the situation by finding the missing card, or eliminating the use of the Side Deck altogether if warranted. Always the attempt is made to stay as low as possible on the punishment, unless the situation is clearly a intentional breach in Game Play.

 

[Digital Jedi]

But that's still my problem to deal with. Yes the judges are supposed to make adjustments to penalities based upon circumstances but it is in the guidelines itself that it is discouraged to make adjustments from the penalty guidelines since the goal was to provide consistancy. And again, premier events are different from the local tourny around the corner. Noone wants to give out penalties, but the players at these events are held to a higher accountability. It may not always be fair but if I have an illegal deck it could be simple forgetfulness, cards stolen, deliberate attempt at cheating, etc. How do you know exactly? In most cases you won't. But that's why the penalty guidelines were drawn up.

Then think of the consequences a missing card can have on the overall game itself. The spirit of the rules is to make gameplay fair for everyone, is it not? Then what happens if all an unscrupulous person has to do is shuffle one of your cards into his deck and get you kicked out the game? There's plenty of ways to loose a card in the chaos of a tournament, and the more important the event, the more chaotic things usually become. Without a spirit guiding the letter of the law, then the more unscruplous people can take advatage of it. That's one of the things wrong with a good many judicial systems. The letter is often manipulated to overide the spirit.

 

[Tkwiget]

But that's still my problem to deal with. Yes the judges are supposed to make adjustments to penalities based upon circumstances but it is in the guidelines itself that it is discouraged to make adjustments from the penalty guidelines since the goal was to provide consistancy. And again, premier events are different from the local tourny around the corner. Noone wants to give out penalties, but the players at these events are held to a higher accountability. It may not always be fair but if I have an illegal deck it could be simple forgetfulness, cards stolen, deliberate attempt at cheating, etc. How do you know exactly? In most cases you won't. But that's why the penalty guidelines were drawn up.

That's why you investigate the player by asking questions and taking the body language into consideration when they answer the questions. We aren't talking about locals. This is a discussion abou Regionals. SJCs you obviously are going to give penalties to people with a more harsh and firm stand on situations. That's because you have to keep the event running as smoothly as possible and as quickly as possible.

You can evaluate whether or not someone is trying to intentionly cheat or not from asking them questions about their illegal side board. You can provide consistancy with the penalties even while adjusting them. You adjust them to fit the circumstances of specific situations. They're guidelines for a reason you know. We as judges should only adjust penalties according to what situation we're faced with that requires it.

I'm not going to give a Game Loss to someone that's clueless about something they did that's an illegal action. This has even happened to some experienced players and shouldn't just be applied to potentially inexperienced players. Even if the person knows about something that's illegal to do, lets say playing Ceasefire while Jinzo or Royal Decree is out and then a couple turns later both players realise that Ceasefire was activated and did damage. In a situation like that you'd have to look at a few factors involve to determine if a penalty is even worth giving to the players.

1) Were there a lot of cards played?
2) Has the situation progressed past a repairable point?

I've had to rule on a situation in a regional where a player took up two of his opponent's monster zones with Ground Collapse and has Royal Decree on the field. His opponent's turn rolls around and he activates Return from the Different Dimension and brings out five monsters. Three turns later they realised the error. The game progressed past the point that I could repair for the simple fact that one of the two players used a deck searcher.