Priority Again

[ygo doc]

I almost forgot. One big question I got asked at the St. Louis SJC involved priority and there were several twists regarding priority.

As stated in the 6.0 version Rulebook:

* The Turn Player has priority to activate a card or effect first in each phase or step of their turn.
* After a card's activation, and at the end of each phase or step, Priority passes to the opponent.

Additionally, if the Turn Player successfully summons a monster or a chain ends in a successful summon of a monster for the Turn Player, he retains priority, but only to activate one of the following:

* A monster Ignition Effect on the Field.
* A spell speed 2 or higher effect.

Apparently, there are still a number of players that believe that once you special summon Cyber Dragon, you retain priority to tribute summon Jinzo or a Monarch before the opponent can respond. Summons have no spell speed, nor are they a card effect.

Once you successfully summon Cyber Dragon or any monster, you as the Turn Player retain the priority to activate an ignition effect on the Field or a spell speed 2 effect or higher. Yes, the opponent may respond with Bottomless Trap Hole or Torrential Tribute before you tribute summon Jinzo to the Field. You do NOT have priority to activate a spell speed 1 effect such as Monster Gate to tribute your Cyber Dragon off the Field, before the opponent can activate Ring of Destruction on it.


OK with the above said, how do you rule on these 2 scenarios:

The Turn Player is in Standby Phase and special summons his Treeborn Frog from the Graveyard. He activates Enemy Controller from his Hand and tributes the Frog to take control of his opponent's Elemental Hero Stratos. No action by opponent. Turn Player special summons his Treeborn Frog back to the Field. Turn Player asks the opponent if he wishes to respond. Opponent says "no". TP announces he is entering Main Phase 1.

Immediately after his announcement, Turn Player tributes the E-Hero Stratos to activate Monster Gate. The opponent says "wait a minute, I still have priority at the end of Standby Phase" and proceeds to activate Ring of Destruction on his own E-Hero Stratos controlled by the Turn Player. The Turn Player argues that he asked if the opponent wanted to respond at the end of Standby Phase and he said "no". Now the TP has priority in Main Phase 1 to activate Monster Gate and tribute the E-Hero before opponent can chain Ring of Destruction to destroy him. How do you rule here?

Next scenario: Turn Player activates Call of the Haunted during Standby Phase to bring back Sangan. Both players agree to enter Main Phase 1. Turn Player immediately tributes Sangan to bring out Jinzo. Opponent cries foul because he was never given the opportunity to activate his Ceasefire. Is this a legal play or not?

doc

 

[John Danker]

The Turn Player is in Standby Phase and special summons his Treeborn Frog from the Graveyard. He activates Enemy Controller from his Hand and tributes the Frog to take control of his opponent's Elemental Hero Stratos. No action by opponent. Turn Player special summons his Treeborn Frog back to the Field. Turn Player asks the opponent if he wishes to respond. Opponent says "no". TP announces he is entering Main Phase 1.

Immediately after his announcement, Turn Player tributes the E-Hero Stratos to activate Monster Gate. The opponent says "wait a minute, I still have priority at the end of Standby Phase" and proceeds to activate Ring of Destruction on his own E-Hero Stratos controlled by the Turn Player. The Turn Player argues that he asked if the opponent wanted to respond at the end of Standby Phase and he said "no". Now the TP has priority in Main Phase 1 to activate Monster Gate and tribute the E-Hero before opponent can chain Ring of Destruction to destroy him. How do you rule here?

Of course it appears there are poor communications here. What I tried to drive home to the judges at that SJC was the importance of investigative judging. That I've always felt I have a talent for, what I honed that weekend was doing so without giving away what I was trying to reveal. In this case it's important to find out (as best as possible) the exact wording that was used.

If the wording you used is accurate...in your first paragraph the turn player asked if the non-turn player wished to "respond"...we know that you don't respond to announcement by the turn player wishing to end the phase, you either agree or do not agree. In the second paragraph above the turn player again speaks of responding to the end of the phase.

Before making a ruling I'd certainly take a look at what other cards are in play and potentially could be in play (face down S/T cards) to see if they might give any clue as to what other possible scenarios might occur (giving me a better idea of what each player had in mind) As well as looking at life point totals, this as well sometimes gives clues as to the intent of a player's statements (weather they're trying a last ditch effort to save themselves from defeat)

If no clues and reasonable evidence can be extracted from questioning and checks described above...technically I'd have to rule (based only on the information provided) that play rewinds and the non-turn player is allowed to either agree or disagree to move to main phase 1. I'd also give both players PE warnings for failure to communicate properly and point out the importance of doing so.

Is this the non-turn player trying to sqeak out on a technicality? Quite possibly. Does he have a legitimate argument, absolutely. Without actually being there, hearing and seeing the players, checking what the variables are, it's a difficult call and I wouldn't blame a judge for calling it either way.

Next scenario: Turn Player activates Call of the Haunted during Standby Phase to bring back Sangan. Both players agree to enter Main Phase 1. Turn Player immediately tributes Sangan to bring out Jinzo. Opponent cries foul because he was never given the opportunity to activate his Ceasefire. Is this a legal play or not?

doc

In this scenario I'd verify first that both players agreed to move to main phase 1. If that is verified as true then I'd ask the non-turn player why they feel they have the right to activate Ceasefire before the turn player can tribute Sangan. (I'd be curious to hear this person's answer) It's quite possible the non-turn player needs some education on game mechanics. If the answer is fumbled and stumbled (not giving me any indication that the non-turn player has any reason) I'd instruct play to move on and inform the non-turn player they'd best have a viable reason to stop play next time or I'll be issuing a warning for delay of game as it appears the non-turn player is attempting to gain advantage without just cause.

 

[ygo doc]

Wow! John you answer the questions as if you've been a Head Judge more than a few times.

Sorry, I haven't got back to this list in awhile but I do want to comment on my own questions.

Regarding the first scenario, although the opponent did not respond to the second special summon of Treeborn Frog in Standby Phase, that does not give the Turn Player the right to immediately go to Main Phase. Remember, "After a card's activation, and at the end of each phase or step, Priority passes to the opponent."

When the Turn Player stated his intention to enter Main Phase, that immediately gives priority to the opponent to activate a card effect at the end of Standby Phase. This is the same deal as when we say we end our turn, and the opponent suddenly MST's or Dust's our newly set trap card during the End Phase. Players are not forced to start their turn, just because the current Turn Player announces the end of their turn.

The opponent in this case, should be allowed to use Ring of Destruction at the end of Standby Phase.



Question #2 has a much different nature, and may need clarification from UDE. As far as I understand it, PRIORITY is used only to decide which player gets to activate a card or effect first.

If the Turn Player has activated Call of the Haunted during Main Phase 1 to successfully special summon Sangan from the Graveyard, the Turn Player does indeed retain priority now, but only to activate an ignition effect on the Field or a spell speed 2 or higher effect. The Turn Player does NOT have priority to immediatey tribute Sangan and summon Jinzo! Summoning is not a card effect and has no spell speed.

With the above said, my question was different and involved tribute summoning during Main Phase 1. Both players agree we're at MP1. Does the Turn Player have priority to summon a monster here, or does he need to pass priority first? The 6.0 Rulebook states "The Turn Player has priority to activate a card or effect first in each phase or step of their turn." My question here now revolves around Main Phase actions. Does the Turn Player also have priority to:
1. Summon or Set a monster
2. Change your monster's Battle position
3. Activate a card or effect
4. Set Spell or Trap Cards

The Turn Player may do any of the above 4 actions during Main Phase. However, does he have PRIORITY to do any one of those actions first? or just number 3?

doc

 

[densetsu_x]

I think the wording is a little off, but at the start of each phase, priority goes to the turn player. You even said it yourself: "Activate a card." Activating a card pretty much means to play it which would include Summon/Set. In your second scenario, if they both agreed that it is Main Phase 1, Turn Player can indeed Summon or activate even a Speed 1 Spell Card before the opponent can do anything.

The turn player has it fully at the start of the Phase while the opponent has it fully at the end. If the NTP was that worried about it, he should have done something about it at the end of the Standby Phase.

And as for the 1st example, John pretty much covered the bases there.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

What about a Non-Turn Player RESPONDING to the entrance into Main Phase 2? It would be useless to Ring Treeborn at the end of Standby, as it would return anyway, so it makes sense to wait until Main Phase 1, however, when responding to an event (like entering a phase, drawing, summoning, setting, etc.), the Turn Player can only respond with priority with Spell Speed 2+ effects (or those pesky ignition effects, etc.) but does NOT have priority to start another event, or (even in the Main Phases) activate a Spell Speed 1 Spell card. Non-Turn Player (and Turn Player) must have an opportunity to respond to an event before another event occurs.

I think this is what the Doc said above.

 

[skey23]

Upon entering a Main Phase, the Turn Player most certainly has Priority to perform a Summon before the opponent can do anything.

 

[John Danker]

I'll second that motion <sticking hand up>

 

[densetsu_x]

I'll second that motion <sticking hand up>

We have a motion, we have a second, all in favor say "Aye".

"AYE!"

 

[SoilentG]

Thanks again for bringing this stuff up... I had learned previously that the turn player retained priority after summoning a monster... but now am a little confused....

The rulebook states that "Summoning a Monster, Tributing, and Paying Costs are not card activations and therefore you cannot respond to those actions using a Chain."

So, what I didn't know that seems to be stated in this thread... that the Turn Player can only use his priority by activating a Spell Speed 2 or higher after a Summon. Why is that so? It's not a chain... obviously I'm missing something...

 

[masterwoo0]

Thanks again for bringing this stuff up... I had learned previously that the turn player retained priority after summoning a monster... but now am a little confused....

The rulebook states that "Summoning a Monster, Tributing, and Paying Costs are not card activations and therefore you cannot respond to those actions using a Chain."

So, what I didn't know that seems to be stated in this thread... that the Turn Player can only use his priority by activating a Spell Speed 2 or higher after a Summon. Why is that so? It's not a chain... obviously I'm missing something...

The turn player has priority to start all chains, and since a summon itself is not considered a "chainable event" (unless it has a Trigger like Zaborg, Breaker, or Mobius), they retain that priority even after a summon, and can activate a monster's Ignition Effect (which starts a chain), or a Spell Speed 2 or higher Card Effect.

 

[SoilentG]

Hmmm... on the surface that appears to restate what I've already gleaned here... but, reading into your words maybe this is the why:

"Once the turn player has Summoned a monster he still retains priority. Summoning is not a chainable event. But, it is an event which is not fully finished and so the turn player can only activate Trigger effects and Spell Speed 2 or higher effects/cards if he chooses to use his priority."

Would that be an accurate statement? I'm trying to understand why the turn player can't activate Spell Speed 1 with his priority after a Summon. Maybe this is an obvious point to most players... not to me... heh.

Thanks,

Soil out.

 

[skey23]

The 'why' is because that's the way Mr. Takahashi wants it.

And you can't activate Trigger Effects after a Summon with Priority, you activate Ignition Effects.

 

[Martok]

What about a Non-Turn Player RESPONDING to the entrance into Main Phase 2?

A player can only respond to actions, and the start of a new phase is not an action.

An "action" can be:
-> drawing a card
-> resolving a card or an effect
-> setting a card
-> successfully summoning a monster
-> attacking
-> changing the battle position of a monster
-> discarding a card

And you can't activate Trigger Effects after a Summon with Priority,

Mobius?

 

[skey23]

Triggered effects have nothing to do with Priority. Once the optional effect is triggered, you must choose right then and there, this is not something you can avoid doing, and this doesn't involve Priority in any way.

 

[cuzwbd]

so- it seems like this means the turn player can summon moby, choose to use his effect and declare target(s) and still retain priority to activate(in response to summon of moby) a set ring of destruction targeting opponents face up monster... then non turn player can respond to summon if he chooses/is able?
is there an article link with a discussion about trigger vs ignition?? both word definitions are so similar as far as english language is concerned - but not in yu gi oh game terminology....

 

[cuzwbd]

A player can only respond to actions, and the start of a new phase is not an action.

An "action" can be:
-> drawing a card
-> resolving a card or an effect
-> setting a card
-> successfully summoning a monster
-> attacking
-> changing the battle position of a monster
-> discarding a card

then you say you cannot activate threatening roar in response to entering the battle phase???? i dont get how entering/exiting a phase is considered nothing happening....

 

[cuzwbd]

i know - i'm daisy chaining responses... sigh... but i find it interesting that, in games, sports, work and life in general that the more you learn - the less you know... this has been reflected upon throughout history and was brought home at a young age for me when reading mark twain - he went on about how dumb and ignorant his old man was and left home at 16 - when he returned at 21 or so he was astounded at how much his father had learned in 5 short years...this phenomenon has brought me many grins over many years and situations :rolleyes

 

[John Danker]

<laffin & laffin> You just stated what I tell a LOT of Yugioh judges! It's a never ending battle, everytime you take a judge test and pass it, you'd think you'd be closer to "knowing" the game....problem is, the more you learn about this game the more you realize you don't know!

and no, you can't activate Threatening Roar in response to entering the battle phase....yet, you don't have priority to do so. Turn player has priority to begin a chain in the start step of the battle phase, if they don't wish to begin a chain then you may activate Threatening Roar.

 

[ygo doc]

<laffin & laffin> You just stated what I tell a LOT of Yugioh judges! It's a never ending battle, everytime you take a judge test and pass it, you'd think you'd be closer to "knowing" the game....problem is, the more you learn about this game the more you realize you don't know!

and no, you can't activate Threatening Roar in response to entering the battle phase....yet, you don't have priority to do so. Turn player has priority to begin a chain in the start step of the battle phase, if they don't wish to begin a chain then you may activate Threatening Roar.

Your laughing, I was almost crying. I wrote the original question because in scenario 2, a duelist wanted to argue that the last thing that happened in the game state was the summoning of a monster with Call of the Haunted. As Such, the Turn Player was limited in his options, although he retains priority.

The problem with that argument is both players already agreed to start Main Phase 1. Last thing to occur in the game state is the change of phase, not the summoning of a monster. Turn player gets to tribute summon.

As I was writing my previous post here, I have a duelist/judge looking over my shoulder and quoting the rulebook to me, asking if the Turn Player does indeed have the "priority" to do other Main Phase activities and I began to question myself. The rulebook does not define activating a card or effect to include changing battle positions, summoning monsters or setting traps/spells. Despite this, the rulebook is still correct with the addition that during Main Phase the Turn Player may execute one of the other actions first.

There is a slight glitch in priority following the successful summoning of a monster by the Turn Player. In this instance, the Turn Player retains priority but only to execute one of the following actions: 1) activate an ignition effect on the Field or 2) activate a spell speed 2 effect or higher. The Turn player does not have the priority or right to summon/tribute summon another monster or activate a spell speed 1 effect.

Example #1
Turn Player special summons Cyber Dragon. He retains priority. Opponent activates Ring of Destruction to destroy Cyber Dragon. Turn Player declares he has priority and proceeds to summon Cyber Phoenix, knowing that its machine protecting effect will negate the effect of RoD. This is illegal.

Example #2
Turn Player activates Premature Burial to special summon Sangan to the Field. Opponent activates Compulsory Evacuation Device and targets Sangan. Turn player says "Sorry, too late I have priority" and then activates Monster Gate and tributes Sangan to the Graveyard. Monster Gate is not a spell speed 2 effect or higher and the Turn Player does NOT have priority to activate this effect before the opponent can respond.

doc

 

[John Danker]

I'm afraid most of us who frequent this site know that the rule book isn't all encompassing and that things are constantly being defined as the game evolves and new cards are introduced.

While it would be nice if the rule book included a great deal more of the mechanics of the game, on the flip side the rule book that comes with a structure deck is meant as an introductory guideline. If it were as encompassing as it needed to be to teach the fine points of the game it would be overwhelming to the target audience of the game (starting out)

Knowing what some of us do I'm actually a little surprised that the word priority is even brought up in the rule book this last printing. To have a definition of any depth to it at this point isn't even a consideration as you well know doc.

All of this makes our jobs as judges that much more difficult of course....but that's why we get paid the big bucks right? <smirk>