Raigeki Break vs. Spiritualism vs. Phenox Wing Wind Blast

[exiledforcefreak]

Raigeki Break destroys 1 card on the field...
Spiritualism returns one magic/trap card on the field...
Phenox Wing Wind Blast returns one card on the field to the top of it's owner's deck...


Ok, here's the game mechanic in question:
All card in a chain remain on the field untill the FULL resolution of the ENTIRE chain unless a card is destroyed suring sed chain.

Here's the question:
does this apply to a card being returned to the top of it's owners deck and/or returned to it's owner's hand?

Given: an activated card effect does not include itself
EX: Giant Trunade does not return itself
EX: Mystical Space Typhoon can no destroy itself


Situations:

My opponent activates Raigeki Break on my face down Scapegoat and I activate it in response
-Scapegoat's effect goes through and Scapegoat is destroyed

My opponent activates Spiritualism (or Giant Trunade, it doesn't really matter) and I activate my only face down m/t card Scapegoat
-Scapegoat's effect goes through but is Scapegoat returned to my hand?

My opponent activates Phenox Wing Wind Blast on my face down m/t. I activate it in response, it's a scapegoat.
-Scapegoat's effect goes through... but is Scapegoat returned to the top of my deck?

I activate Scapegoat and my Opponent activates Phenox Wing Wind Blast on my scapgoat in response
-Scapegoat's effect goes through but is Scapegoat returned to the top of my deck?

Does anyone know? If someone does know I'd like to know why so that I can better understand game mechanics and extrapolate rulings based on the rulings of these 3 questions.

 

[Dlanaan]

In all cases, because the Scapegoat card was activated, it will not be returned to the hand. It is already 'en route' to the Graveyard so to speak. It just needs to remain on the field until the entire chain resolves, but is not able to be sent any place but the Graveyard or removed from play.

As for the why, you can extrapolate from the Giant Trunade ruling and go for there. Basically, your options are either to wait for the card to get to the Graveyard on its own, or send it there faster. Regardless, it is going to the Graveyard (or RFP if appropriate).

 

[Digital Jedi]

And one of the key phrases here is that you are chaining to Trunade/Spirtualism/PWB. The quickplay spell card or trap card now is the second step in the chain and will resolve first. So:

1. Scapegoat resolves: You Special Summon your Sheep Tokens.
2. Giant Trunade resolves: Return all S/T to your hand.

Scapegoat doesn't go to your hand for the simple reason that it resolved already. Like Dlanaan said, it's simply waiting for the chain to resolve and then all activated cards are on there way to the Garveyard.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

I know all this, your not telling me anything new. The question was, and still is, "why?"

@Dlanaan, thx for trying but I would really like not just a reason but a game mechanic AND a reason for the game mechanic if the game mechanic has a reason. The game mechanic I'm looking for is one that...isn't vague. Thanks anyway

@Digital Jedi, your reasoning is invalid due to the example Posted in the original post in which Phenox Wing Wind Blast is chained to Scapegoat. In that example, Phenox Wind Wind Blast resolves before Scapegoat.

 

[Digital Jedi]

The why is simple E.F.F. The keyword is activated. And while I didn't notice that you meant PWWB in chain to Scapegoat, the reasoning is is identical.

Take for example MST. If you activate scapegoat and I chain MST to try to destroy it, you still get to summon your Sheep Tokens. Why? Becuase MST destroys, but does not negate.

Similary PWWB in no way negtes the actvation the card. If it did then it could send it back to the Deck. But the chain mechanic gives you a chance to use that card if you want to. Once you have used the card there is nothing left for PWWB to return just as there is nothing left for MST to destroy.

EDIT:Keep in mind the the reason the cards remain on the field for the resolution of the chain is simply for the purposes of certain calculation effects like Princess of Tsurugi or Barrel Behind the Door or even Chaos Emporor Dragon. But dont apply to effects like Trunade or PWWB.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Take for example MST. If you activate scapegoat and I chain MST to try to destroy it, you still get to summon your Sheep Tokens. Why? Becuase MST destroys, but does not negate.

Similary PWWB in no way negtes the actvation the card. If it did then it could send it back to the Deck. But the chain mechanic gives you a chance to use that card if you want to. Once you have used the card there is nothing left for PWWB to return just as there is nothing left for MST to destroy.

Not quite: MST does destroy a targetted card that ii's activated in chain to. AND if MST targets a face-down card taht is chained to MST, MST will destroy that card. So a Normal Spell/Trap being destroyed by game mechanic doesn't prevent any other card from destroying it.

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm not quite sure what your trying to say, but, yes, tecnically speaking MST destroys the chained card. But what we're trying to flesh out is why something like PWWB or Trunade wont return it to the hand or deck. MST my destroy it but the simple fact that the targeted card getting to resolve means that MSTs effect (effectivly) disapears.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

ok, maybe you didn't see this in the original post but I will quote myself

"All card in a chain remain on the field untill the FULL resolution of the ENTIRE chain unless a card is destroyed suring sed chain."

Here's the fIrst question from the original post

"does this apply to a card being returned to the top of it's owners deck and/or returned to it's owner's hand?"

I am NOT asking about negation. Please stop posting information regarding negation, Negation vs. destruction and all other game mechanics involving negation was one of the first things I learned.

The Question I am asking is that in situations No. 2-4, What happens to the scapegoat, when does it happen, and, most importantly, in full detail, WHY does it happen.

Here's what I'm not looking for:
-I do not want a reason that explains the situation but does not site a source or game mechanic. When someone gives a reason that explains the situation without siting a game mechanic or source, that is called making stuff up

-I do not want someone saying what happens without giving a reason for what happens. This is called making stuff up

Maybe it's not about what I want. Sorry I'm in a bad mood everyone.

Edit: By all means post guesses but please make sure you make clear that you are guessing. Don't feel obligated to know the answer. I already asked John Danker, he told me he knew what happened but that he did not yet know why. He also said he would reseaerch the topic... How you research a game mechanic no official information exists on is beyond me... extrapolations maybe? that would be quite the arduous task

 

[Digital Jedi]

First of all clam down

I'll repost the EDIT in one of my last post you may have missed:

"EDIT:Keep in mind the the reason the cards remain on the field for the resolution of the chain is simply for the purposes of certain calculation effects like Princess of Tsurugi or Barrel Behind the Door or even Chaos Emporor Dragon. But dont apply to effects like Trunade or PWWB."

Where did I get that info?
http://www.netrep.net/content/view/53/38/ Which states:

IMPORTANT: When resolving a chain, as the cards resolve they are NOT sent to the Graveyard until the entire chain has resolved, or a card specifically destroys them. This is important for cards such as "Princess of Tsurugi" and "Secret Barrel" where the effect depends on the number of Spell & Trap Cards on the field.

Example #1:
Step 1: Player A Flip Summons "Princess of Tsurugi."
Step 2: Player B chains "Barrel Behind the Door" to the effect.
Because "Barrel Behind the Door" remains on the field until the chain resolves, Player A takes 500 points of damage (1 Trap Card on the opponent's side of the field) from "Princess of Tsurugi"'s Flip Effect.

Example #2:
Step 1: Player A Flip Summons "Princess of Tsurugi."
Step 2: Player B chains "Barrel Behind the Door" to the effect.
Step 3: Player A chains "Seven Tools of the Bandit" to "Barrel Behind the Door."
"Seven Tools of the Bandit" resolves first, and destroys "Barrel Behind the Door", which is sent to the Graveyard immediately. "Princess of Tsurugi" does zero damage to Player B because Player B has no Spell or Trap Cards remaining on the field since "Barrel Behind the Door" was destroyed and sent to the Graveyard.

Example #3:
Step 1: Player A activates "Secret Barrel."
Step 2: Player B chains "Ring of Destruction", his only card on the field or in his hand.
Even though "Ring of Destruction" resolves first, "Secret Barrel" still does 200 damage to Player B because "Ring of Destruction" is on the field when "Secret Barrel" resolves.
_________________________

Actually this clarified for me a liitle bit more too. Thats why I frequent these forums. To keep up to date

As far as the why of it all. I'l state it very simply: Dude. them is just the rules.

 

[Raigekick]

Here's what I'm not looking for:
-I do not want a reason that explains the situation but does not site a source or game mechanic. When someone gives a reason that explains the situation without siting a game mechanic or source, that is called making stuff up

-I do not want someone saying what happens without giving a reason for what happens. This is called making stuff up

Unfortunately, we know how it works because it was given in the ruling, but we were not told on the why it works that way. This is the reason we make up best guesses on why it works because it was not provided to us.

My guesses:
Cards that are in route to the graveyard have a death mark on it, so it won't be eligible to be returned to your hand anymore. Just like when a flip effect monster is flipped and destroyed in battle, it stays in the field but was destroyed and has a death mark on them that is why it is not eligible to be targeted by it's own effect (this may be over stretching it). On the other hand, "Emergency Provision" and MST can send death marked cards to the graveyard because it is on its way to the Graveyard anyway.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

I JUST SAID I KNOW THAT CARDS ARE NOT SEND THE THE GRAVE UNTILL THE FULL RESOLUTION OF THE ENTIRE CHAIN!!!!

I quote from my first AND second post on this topic

"All card in a chain remain on the field untill the FULL resolution of the ENTIRE chain unless a card is destroyed during sed chain."

you remind me WAY too much of myself as a kid

 

[Digital Jedi]

Thats a good point Raigekick. Many many card effect, rulings and game mechanics have very executions that everyone gets but ther isn't necassarily going to be an Official reason why other than "Because Konami Says So." But most of the tinme these things can be explained with out the Official explanation with simple common sence and simple extapolation. In other words sometimes we have to use our onw reasoning ability because the Game Designers assumed we would do that anyway.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

but the simple fact that the targeted card getting to resolve means that MSTs effect (effectivly) disapears.

No it doesn't. MST will destroy the card by its effect always.

It makes a difference as some cards depend on it (Driving Snow/ Gust)

MSTs effect does not effectively dissapear.


@ Raigekick, hey now.. we're in UDE's territory.. we have to say "Des Mark"

 

[Digital Jedi]

E.F.F. your not going to get a clear reason why or an Official reason why. The rules of the game just "say so" We have used what we know to flesh out the situation for you but apparently, you already understand it yourself. You just haven't realised that with all rules there is a point where it really is the end of the explanation. The chained card goes to the graveyard and resolves in order. Thats all. There is nothing more. You mihgt as well ask: Why do I get to summon only one monster instead of two. Because that same reasoning apllies: "Thems the rules."

 

[Raigekick]

@ Raigekick, hey now.. we're in UDE's territory.. we have to say "Des Mark"

LOL. You are absolutely right! UDE is rated "E" for Everyone. I should call it "Termination Mark" or like what you said, "Des Mark".

 

[Digital Jedi]

No it doesn't. MST will destroy the card by its effect always.

It makes a difference as some cards depend on it (Driving Snow/ Gust)

MSTs effect does not effectively dissapear.

Perhaps I stated it unclearly, all I meant was that if MST was chained to card even though MST resolves first the other card will still resolve (presuming its a Normal Trap or QP Spell). MST destroys it, but what I mean to say, is that it's effectivly to late.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

E.F.F. your not going to get a clear reason why or an Official reason why. The rules of the game just "say so" We have used what we know to flesh out the situation for you but apparently, you already understand it yourself. You just haven't realised that with all rules there is a point where it really is the end of the explanation. The chained card goes to the graveyard and resolves in order. Thats all. There is nothing more. You mihgt as well ask: Why do I get to summon only one monster instead of two. Because that same reasoning apllies: "Thems the rules."

please go back and read my posts, your "hearing" what you want to hear instead of what I typed.

 

[Digital Jedi]

please go back and read my posts, your "hearing" what you want to hear instead of what I typed.

Alright, to be fair, leys see if I missed anything (and then Iv got to go feed my daughter. Shes eating me alive!)

Ok, here's the game mechanic in question:
All card in a chain remain on the field untill the FULL resolution of the ENTIRE chain unless a card is destroyed suring sed chain.

Here's the question:
does this apply to a card being returned to the top of it's owners deck and/or returned to it's owner's hand?

Okay, I think we've all established that the answer is no. Moving on.

My opponent activates Raigeki Break on my face down Scapegoat and I activate it in response
-Scapegoat's effect goes through and Scapegoat is destroyed

Correct

My opponent activates Spiritualism (or Giant Trunade, it doesn't really matter) and I activate my only face down m/t card Scapegoat
-Scapegoat's effect goes through but is Scapegoat returned to my hand?

No.

My opponent activates Phenox Wing Wind Blast on my face down m/t. I activate it in response, it's a scapegoat.
-Scapegoat's effect goes through... but is Scapegoat returned to the top of my deck?

No.

I activate Scapegoat and my Opponent activates Phenox Wing Wind Blast on my scapgoat in response
-Scapegoat's effect goes through but is Scapegoat returned to the top of my deck?

Possibly. But probably not.

Ill be glad to explain why but I think I already did a few times. Besides I have to go for a few minutes and feed this girl. I'll be back shortly.

 

[Dlanaan]

This thread is starting to get out of hand. Exiledforcefreak, you are not going to get the answer you want simply because there is nothing in the written rules that we have available that would answer the question to your satisfaction. All we have are rulings, such as that of Giant Trunade, that would apply to this situation. For the moment, you will just need to be satisfied with the answer 'Konami said so'. Locking this thread.