Sakuretsu Armor and position changes.

[skey23]

Ok, I had to ask here sooner or later since I can't find the stoopid Judge List archive and I still don't have access to the Level 3 Judge's List.....

P1 attacks P2.
P2 activates "Sakuretsu Armor".
P1 responds with "Desert Sunlight" or any other card that would put their monster into face-up Defense Position.
P2 does not respond.
P1 does not respond.
Resove chain.
Monster(s) go to defense.

Now, will the monster that attacked still be destroyed by "Sakuretsu Armor"?

Thanks.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Sakuretsu Armor can destroy Total Defense Shogun so the position change doesn't matter.

As with all similar cards "Attacking" monster is an activation requirement, not a resolution requirement. So even if a monster is no longer attacking those cards will still resolve, however that is a moot point:

If a card were switched to defense position, and then back to attack position in a chain it would still continue its attack. Defense position will not stop an attack until the chain resolves.

Therefore the monster is still Attacking when Sakuretsu armor resolves.

 

[Tiso]

I would say no since it is not attacking anymore, thus it is no longer the attacking monster. I rather look at it like Book of Moon vs. Sakuretsu Armor.

With the case of Sakuretsu Armor vs. Total Defense Shogun, it is clear why it will against that monster. Notice it does not say "destroy the attacking monster in Attack Position" or mentions that it has to be Attack Position. Shogun is still attacking, even if it is in Defense Position which is why that card would against it.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

I would say no since it is not attacking anymore, thus it is no longer the attacking monster. I rather look at it like Book of Moon vs. Sakuretsu Armor.

The reason Book of Moon prevents destruction is because Sakuretsu armor is concerned with a specified card/monster. When a monster goes face-down Sakuretsu Armor is not able to see the monster it targetted, and cannot tell which monster it is supposed to destroy.

 

[skey23]

Sakuretsu Armor can destroy Total Defense Shogun so the position change doesn't matter.

But they start out in Defense Position, and they are still 'attacking' at the resolution of "Sakuretsu Armor".

 

[Tkwiget]

Don't even mention Total Defense Shogun. It doesn't contribute anything really as it can attack in either position and requires that its attack be negated in order for its attack to stop or if the card is destroyed.

Sakuretsu Armor will only destroy a monster when it resolves. If you put any monster in the situation you drew up Skey (other than Total Defense Shogun) that the monster would live as its attack is cancelled out. If the monster doesn't have an effect that allows it to attack in defense then the attack that you declare with the monster ends when its Battle Position is changed in mid-chain.

Excluding Total Defense Shogun and other monsters that can attack in defense as well as in attack position, their attack will stop if they change Battle Positions and will live if a card like Sakuretsu Armor is activated.

Player A attacks with Gemini Elf. Player B responds with Sakuretsu Armor. Player A chains Desert Sunlight. The attack stops and Gemini Elf is no longer attacking. Sakuretsu Armor resolves without effect.

 

[skey23]

As with all similar cards "Attacking" monster is an activation requirement, not a resolution requirement. So even if a monster is no longer attacking those cards will still resolve, however that is a moot point:

How is it a moot point? As soon as "Desert Sunlight" resolves, the attacking monster is no longer attacking. The text of "Sakuretsu Armor" is very specific. It says "...destroy the attacking monster...". If the monster is no longer attacking, then how can it be destroyed?

 

[Tkwiget]

Sakuretsu Armor has and always will require the monster that it's targetting to be attacking at activation and during resolution. It's a requirement for the effect of Sakuretsu Armor to resolve with effect and affect the monster that it's targetting.

That's how Sakuretsu Armor has always worked.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

How is it a moot point? As soon as "Desert Sunlight" resolves, the attacking monster is no longer attacking. The text of "Sakuretsu Armor" is very specific. It says "...destroy the attacking monster...". If the monster is no longer attacking, then how can it be destroyed?

Incorrect.

The attack will NOT stop until the chain resolve completely. The monster will still be attacking at the time sakuretsu armor resolves.

For example:

Player A declares an attack with Gemini Elf
Player B activated Windstorm of Etaqua.
Player A chains Zero Gravity.

Resolve in reverse order:

Zero Gravity resolves, Gemini Elf is in defense position.
Windstorm of Etaqua resolves Gemini is back into attack position.

The attack continues as normal.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=8656
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=7390
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4025

 

[skey23]

I understand all that completely. But is that what I asked in my initial post? No.

At no point did I mention anything being chained to "Desert Sunlight" so the monster will end up back in Attack Position.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

I understand all that completely. But is that what I asked in my initial post? No.

At no point did I mention anything being chained to "Desert Sunlight" so the monster will end up back in Attack Position.

You don't "resume" attacks that have stopped, (as demonstrated in the wait for a second chain example in one of the posts)

The reason the attack is allowed to continue in those situations is because the attack has never stopped.

 

[skey23]

Ok, so, going back to the links you posted. In all of the scenarios, if you'll notice the answer was the same in each one.

The attack still proceeded because the monster ended up in face-up Attack Position at the end of the chain. This leads me to the conclusion the monster is still considered to be attacking because it's still in Attack Position.

But in my scenario, the monster ends up in Defense Position, so how can it still be attacking?

[edit]BTW...Did you happen to notice that one of them was posted by densetsu_x, aka Andrew Roth?...lol.

 

[John Danker]

[Re: Total Defense Shogun] "Widespread Ruin" and "Mirror Force" cannot destroy "Total Defense Shogun" if he attacks while in Defense Position, and his attack resolves as normal.

[Re: Total Defense Shogun] If "Total Defense Shogun" in Defense Position is your only monster, and attacks, your opponent cannot activate "Mirror Force" because it will have no effect.

The way I see it through the card text of Sakuretsu Armor...


You can only activate this card when your opponent declares an attack. Destroy the attacking monster.

Break that down...

You can only activate this card when your opponent declares an attack.

<opponent may chain to the activation such as Desert Sunlight>

Destroy the attacking monster.

What attacking monster?

I'm open to someone showing me that what I've pasted in regarding Mirror Force and Widespread Ruin or what I've written has no bearing on the situation....but it's going to have to be pretty concrete and not just theory.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Since we're trying to get exactly how Sakuretsu Armor works, let me explain the Moot point.

Player A'sGemini Elf attacks.
Player A passes priority.
Player B activates Sakuretsu Armor. Sakuretsu Armor looks and sees the attacking monster, at now is aimed at its target. It know it has to look for that specific Gemini Elf to destroy.
Player A doesn't chain
Player B chains Magic Cylinder. Gemini Elf is identified.
Player A doesn't chain
Player B chains Draining Shield 'I'. Gemini Elf is identified
Player A doesn't chain
Player B chains Draining Shield 'II'. Gemini Elf is identified

Now let's remember the card texts

Draining Shield
"increase your Life Points by the attacking monster's ATK."
Magic Cylinder
" inflict damage equal to the attacking monster's ATK"
Sakuretsu Armor
"Destroy the attacking monster."

All say attacking monster, and all are targetting effects.

We already have a ruling for Draining Shield:
http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=1766

So we resolve in reverse order:

Draining Shield 'II' Negates Gemini Elfs attack and increase Player B's life points.

Now Draining Shield 'I' resolve. Now Gemini Elf is no longer "attacking," yet the ruling above shows that it still can increase the player's Life Points. Why? Because it has already identified Gemini Elf as its target, it's no longer looking for an attacking monster to identify.

Magic Cylinder resolves. Gemini Elf is no longer attacking, but that doesn't matter, as it has already identified Gemini Elf, and will now inflict damage.

Sakuretsu Armor resolves. Gemini Elf is no longer attacking, but that doesn't matter, sakuretsu armor has already identified its target.

So as long as Sakuretsu Armor's target is identifiable, it doesn't matter whether its still attacking or not.

 

[Tiso]

Because it states what is going to happen to who on each card. Mirror Force says destroys every Attack Position monster on your opponent's side of the field. Widespread Ruin needs your opponent to declare an attack, at which point the monster on their field with the highest ATK in Attack Position will be destroyed. Sakuretsu Armor however activates when your opponent declares an attack and will destroy the attacking monster. It does not say it destroy the attacking monster in Attack Position or the monster that declared the attack.

Hence is why it will destroy Total Defense Shogun. The answer I said earlier explaining this gives me the conclusion that the monster must still be in the process of attacking. If it is not (I.E. switched to Defense Position) then it will not be destroyed.

 

[Tiso]

DaGuyWitBluGlasses, you are trying to group together cards with similiar ways of working, but totally different mechanics involved. Draining Shield and Magic Cylinder work on the same principle. Sakuretsu Armor does not. The first have to negate the attack first before their secondary effect takes place. If they do not negate it, they will not increase the life points.

Case in point, Elemental Hero Wildheart vs. Negate Attack.

The monster has to be still in the process of attacking when Sakuretsu Armor resolves. If for my example my Hydrogeddon declares an attack, you activate Sakuretsu Armor, I can decide to chain with Desert Sunlight. In this scenario, Hydrogeddon attacked, saw he was going to be destroyed, had a change of his heart and decided to cancel his attack essentially and hide into Defense Position. Sakuretsu Armor cannot destroy a monster if it is not in the process of attacking when it resolves.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

The answer I said earlier explaining this gives me the conclusion that the monster must still be in the process of attacking. If it is not (I.E. switched to Defense Position) then it will not be destroyed.

If Konami made card texts clear.

Sakuretsu Armor (Magic Cylinder) [Draining Shield]

You may only activate this card when your opponent declares an attack. The attacking monster is targetted by this card. Destroy the targetted monster. ([Negate the monster's attack.] Inflict Damage to your opponent's Life Points)[Increase your life points by an amount (equal to the targetted monster's ATK.)]

DaGuyWitBluGlasses, you are trying to group together cards with similiar ways of working, but totally different mechanics involved. Draining Shield and Magic Cylinder work on the same principle. Sakuretsu Armor does not. The first have to negate the attack first before their secondary effect takes place. If they do not negate it, they will not increase the life points.

Incorrect.

They do NOT need to negate the attack to affect the lifepoints.

 

[Tiso]

Oh ok, so obviously by what you say if I attack, you use Magic Cylinder and I use Interdimensional Matter Transporter on my monster, I still lose life points. Right......

Konami made the cards clear on how they work and what they do. You are the one confused on this. Where did you get this nonsense that not negating the attack automatically meant you still gain or lose life points?

 

[skey23]

Well "Magic Cylinder" is probably not the best one to use...lol.

It requires the monster attacking to still be face-up on the field so it can determine it's ATK value. So if it's removed from the field, then it can't determine the ATK value, so no damage will be dealt.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Oh ok, so obviously by what you say if I attack, you use Magic Cylinder and Interdimensional Matter Transporter my monster, I still lose life points. Right......

Konami made the cards clear on how they work and what they do. You are the one confused on this.

No you won't.

A) Magic Cylinder needs to check the Life Points at resolution, if the monster is not face-up on the field it cannot check its attack.

B) When a monster is removed from play it is seperated from effects (and being identified as a target) so as soon as a monster is removed from play Magic Cylinder loses track of which monster it targets.

And yes, Konami's rulings have made it quite clear on how the cards work. They target a monster, then look for the targetted monster. They don't have to choose another target at resolution.