Sakuretsu Armor...

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boyscout8

New Member
Ok, I have a supposed level 3 judge at a tournament I go to who claims to know better than UDE on this ruling, however I leave this open to discussion, hopefully he will see this when he is on the forums and this arguement can be layed to rest...anyway...now note this error is a commonly made misconception...

Sakuretsu Armor's Effect:

You can only activate this card when your opponent declares an attack. Destroy the attacking monster.

This effect kicks in whether it be a direct attack on your lp or an attack on your monster.

If it is a direct attack, the attacking monster is destroyed BEFORE the damage step, thus in a sense negating the attack. Now the same applies to an attack on your monster, the attacking monster is, again, destroyed before the damage step.

I checked this ruling with the PES and over-the-phone ruling judges from UDE, so is it possible for this to get posted up as a set ruling, or is it going to be changed in the near future?

Well, please LMK,

-Yeshaya/Isaiah
 
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Um, yeah, that's pretty much how it works. If a monster is destroyed, there's no attack from it.

NOW though... there is 1 thing that can put a slight hole into things.

If I attack with say "Reflect Bounder" that has "Heavy Mech Support Platform" attached to it and you activate "Sakurestu Armor" to destroy the "Reflect Bounder", the HMSP gets destroyed instead (the effect of that card saves the Machine it is attached to). Because "Sakuretsu Armor" does not negate an attack and "Reflect Bounder" is still on the field, the attack continues (though RB would be back to 1700).

Yes in that example you could chain a 2nd "Sakuretsu Armor" to the first to kill the HMSP and then the Reflect Bounder.

- A
 
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densetsu_x said:
Um, yeah, that's pretty much how it works.  If a monster is destroyed, there's no attack from it.

NOW though... there is 1 thing that can put a slight hole into things.

If I attack with say "Reflect Bounder" that has "Heavy Mech Support Platform" attached to it and you activate "Sakurestu Armor" to destroy the "Reflect Bounder", the HMSP gets destroyed instead (the effect of that card saves the Machine it is attached to).  Because "Sakuretsu Armor" does not negate an attack and "Reflect Bounder" is still on the field, the attack continues (though RB would be back to 1700).

Yes in that example you could chain a 2nd "Sakuretsu Armor" to the first to kill the HMSP and then the Reflect Bounder.

- A
Click to expand...

Ummm... Wouldnt the fact that the attack resolved, prevent the second Sakuretsu from being activated? The declared attack was responded to by Sakuretsu Armor and Heavy Mech was destroyed in place of Reflect Bounder.

In order to activate a second Sakuretsu, there would have to be a "second" declaration of an attack since the last thing to happen was the sending of Heavy Mech to the Graveyard.
 
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To my knowledge, that constitutes a type of replay....the attack is stopped the first time in a sense, so if you wish to go through with the attack again, then the second Sakurestsu comes into play, correct?

-Yeshaya/Isaiah
 
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no replay occurs, because Your opponents side has to change in order for it to be a replay.

so the second Sakuretsu wouldnt work, BUT letsay you have waboku you could activate that instead of Sakurestu since Sakuretsu has a condition that has to be met.

its like saying you can Sakuretsu then activate Magic Cylinders.

see it doesnt work.
why because Both cards have conditions that only happend 1 time.

and since Heavy support mecha got distroyed instead of Bounder all it means is that when it gets to damage calculations its 1700 and not 2200. :)
 
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Well, technically, you could activate Sakurestu Armor and if your opponent doesnt respond, you could then activate Magic Cylinder in a chain.

Chain Link
Sakuretsu Armor ---> Magic Cylinder

Resolve:
Magic Cylinder negates attack and deals 2200 effect damage.

Sakuretsu Armor destroys the attacking monster (Heavy Mech Support Platform) since the timing for activation was correct and Sakuretsu was not negated.
 
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densetsu_x said:
Yes in that example you could chain a 2nd "Sakuretsu Armor" to the first to kill the HMSP and then the Reflect Bounder.

- A
Click to expand...

Densetsu_X doesn't say he starts a new chain but chains SA onto SA both targeting Reflect Bounder. 2nd SA destroys HMSP 1st SA then destroys Reflect Bounder.
 
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irnbrudrinker said:
densetsu_x said:
Yes in that example you could chain a 2nd "Sakuretsu Armor" to the first to kill the HMSP and then the Reflect Bounder.

- A
Click to expand...

Densetsu_X doesn't say he starts a new chain but chains SA onto SA both targeting Reflect Bounder. 2nd SA destroys HMSP 1st SA then destroys Reflect Bounder.
Click to expand...

This would be the same principle as activating 2 Magic Drains, one to negate and destroy a Spell Card and the second one to destroy the discard, which you cant do.

An example of a chain in which you could still activate a "back to back" Trap Card was the examle of "Draining Shield".  If your opponent attacks and you respond with Draining Shield, and if the attacking player does not chain, you can continue to chain another Draining Shield since the timing is still correct.

In the example Densetsu gave, when the first Sakuretsu was activated, a card was destroyed in place of Bounder, which means that a chainable event was created.  Since that is a response to Sakuretsu Armor, I would think that you could only respond by negating the Equip Cards effect.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
In the example Densetsu gave, when the first Sakuretsu was activated, a card was destroyed in place of Bounder, which means that a chainable event was created. Since that is a response to Sakuretsu Armor, I would think that you could only respond by negating the Equip Cards effect.
Click to expand...

I don't think you are understand this?

Player A attacks with Bounder
Player B Activates SA the target is Bounder (1st step)
Player A doesn't chain
Player B CHAINS another SA the target is Bounder (2nd step)(Conditions are still valid for SA)
Player A doesn't chain
Player B doesn't chain.

Effects resolve last activate to first:
2nd step SA resolves and destroys bounder but HMSP is sent to graveyard by HMSP effect thus saving Bounder
1st step SA resolves and destroys bounder, this time no HMSP to save Bounder and is therefore destroyed.

Hope that helps clarify.
 
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Since you can only chain a card to deal with the effect immediately prior to it in the chain this wouldn't work.
It'd be like using Ring of Destruction, your opponent chains Trap of Board Eraser and then you try chain Barrel Behind the Door to Ring of Destruction, it just can't be done.
 
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irnbrudrinker described what I meant. And that is legal because remember, responding to attacks is different than chaining to the activation of spell/trap cards.

It's why in the initial chain to respond to said attack you can chain Magic Cylinder to Draining Shield to Draining Shield if you want or chain Magic Cylinder to Mirror Force. Or as stated, this chain works too

I activate Negate Attack
Opponent chains 7 Tools
I chain another Negate Attack.

So in that initial chain if I activate Sakuretsu Armor, and the opponent does nothing, I could activate a 2nd Sakuretsu Armor to kill both since the timing is still "right" (last thing to resolve was "attack declared" since this chain hasn't resolved yet).

- A
 
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I still don't understand how this can happen.
densetsu_x said:
I activate Negate Attack
Opponent chains 7 Tools
I chain another Negate Attack.
Click to expand...
How does this even work?
Okay, both are counter-trap cards, but the second one doesn't negate the 7 tools...which has to be done, in my understanding at least, if you want to chain to it.
Next you're going to say, that if I activate Waboku, my opponent chains with 7 tools and I can activate another Waboku?
Or are the keywords 'chain' and 'counter' here?
Someone, give me a DECENT and LOGICAL explanation of this, because I fail to see the logic.
 
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Im pretty blown away on that one also. You cannot counter a "counter" with a card that is unrelated to the effect it is countering.

Here it is straight from UDE:

"The basic rule is that Counter Traps can only be used against the card they are immediately following in a chain".


Negate Attack does nothing to the effect of Seven Tools of the Bandit.
 
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When an opponent attacks you can respond to that attack with an appropriate Trap or Quick-Play Spell, so:

Player A attacks with Goblin Attack Force
Player B responds with Draining Shield
Player A does not chain
Player B chains with Mirror Force (condition is still correct because it is responding to the attack)
Player A does not chain
Player B chains with Dark Mirror Force (still responding to the attack)
Player A does not chain
Player B does not chain
chain resolves
Dark Mirror Force destroys all of Player A's Def position monsters
Mirror Force destroys all of Player A's Atk position monsters
Draining Shield fizzles because it's target is no longer on the field (should have used Mirror Force first and Draining Shield second in the chain)

So the same is true with Sakuretsu:
Player A attacks with Reflect Bounder equipped with Heavy Mech
Player B responds with Sakuretsu Armor
Player A does not chain
Player B responds with another Sakuretsu Armor
Player A does not chain
Player B does not chain
chain resolves
Sakuretsu Armor attempts to destroy Reflect Bounder, Heavy Mech is destroyed in place of Reflect Bounder
the other Sakuretsu Armor destroys the Reflect Bounder.

Please note this only works if the opponent is not adding to the chain. If the opponent uses Seven Tools on the first Sakuretsu you are now only able to respond to the Seven Tools with an appropriate Counter Trap.
 
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ah i see, seems very confusing but i guess if its still the declaration then alrighty then.

but to make something clear for my self.

say you activate sakuretstu and i chain say call of the haunted.

can you still chain yet another sakurestu?

im seeing no, but from it looks like anything could be possible.
 
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It isn't spelled out in Kevin's examples that I have seen. But I believed the answer would be Yes you can. The reasoning would be that the action you are chaining to is the important part. An attack was declared, Sakuretsu is activated in response, so this chain is responding to the declaration of an attack, you chain to Sakuretsu with Call of the Haunted, I chain with another Sakuretsu (still legal because this chain was started by the declaration of attack). The ability to chain cards that are responding to the attack only stops when a Counter Trap is used (the reason for this is that now we have moved to Spell Speed 3 and you can only use a Counter Trap against the previous link in the chain).
 
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