Sangan vs Horn of Heaven

D

Duelmaster

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- If the Summon of this card is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" you do not get its effect.

- When this card is sent from the field to the Graveyard, select 1 monster with an ATK of 1500 or less from your Deck, show it to your opponent, and add it to your hand. Then shuffle your Deck.

- Tribute 1 monster on your side of the field. Negate the Normal Summon / Flip Summon / Special Summon of a monster and destroy it.


Why is this it looks logic to me that when Sangan is Flip-Summonsed and than the Flip-Summons is negated by Horn of Heaven that he is sent from the field to the graveyard so his effect is activated. Horn of Heaven and Solemn Judgement don't negate graveyard effect do they ?
 
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I have already sent my rebuttal (?) back to Curtis about his ruling to this question.

I believe his answer was incorrect and that "Sangan" would/should still get his effect when Flip Summoned since he was already on the field and neither "Solemn Judgment" nor "Horn of Heaven" negate the effect of the monster being flip summoned.

Now, I also want to point out, that if the monster in question was a Flip Effect monster, the answer given by Curtis would be correct, because the monster's Flip would have been negated, and the effect would never get a chance to activate.
 
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You've got two scenario to look at here.

A) Sangan summoned from the hand vs. SJ. This one is pretty straight forward. IN this instance, Sangan never hit the field, so when he hits the graveyard, his conditions don't qualify.

B) Sangan flip-summoned vs SJ. This is different. Sangan's flip summon is negated and destroyed, but Sangan was still considered on the field because it was set the previous turn and does not need to be face up before going to the graveyard to get its effect.

I think the context of the ruling is for "hand to field" summoning or for some other effect that is summoning in that manner, not for the flip summon.
 
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Dillie-O said:
I think the context of the ruling is for "hand to field" summoning or for some other effect that is summoning in that manner, not for the flip summon.
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I agree with you about the context of his answer, but as the question clearly stated, it was a Flip Summon and "Sangan" was already on the field.

Curtis is slipping lately ;). They must be really busy or something for him to miss something as simple as a Flip Summon.:D
 
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Ick I just read that. Sounds like he's been busy. Maybe there's something going on that we don't know about with mechanics. I don't know. Then again, I think you called him on another ruling not too long ago as well 8^D

What's up with you, keepin' 'em honest like that? 8^D
 
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Well, I'm not one to brag but....YES IT WAS ME! THAT'S TWICE I GOT HIM!!...HA!...OH YEAH!...OH YEAH!.....

and that concludes my outburst of the day...
 
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Oops, sorry about that. Should have looked it up but I was in the middle of Typography. >> (Still at college right now.)

Maybe if I looked up the ruling BEFORE I posted my poor ruling I would have caught myself. At least someone has a functioning brain right now... xD Thanks for catching someone that was multi-tasking like crazy. (I can't help but be bored in a class that we don't do any hands-on work..nothing but reading. =( )

Like Dillie-O and skey23 pointed out, if Sangan was Set on the field and then Flip Summoned to have his summoning negated that way then yes you would get the effect because it was already on the field. *Hits himself for not catching that...*

And Sangan has to be successfully on the field before you get the effect at all. So negated summons basically means no effect for cards like Sangan and Witch of the Black Forest.

=( Sorry about my post, you could tell I normally post more than a couple lines of text when I actually have the time. I tried to make it quick and simple. xD
 
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OMG!...I can't believe this:

What was posted is Konami's ruling.
While we may find it odd, we must rule accordingly.

- Curtis schultz
Click to expand...
So according to this, if "Sangan" is Flip Summoned, and his Flip Summon is negated with either "Solemn Judgment" or "Horn of Heaven", he WILL NOT GET HIS EFFECT!!

Wow....just....wow...

[edit]For those who did not see the initial question to the Judge's List, it can be found here:
http://www.cogonline.net/threads.11902
 
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If Curtis is wrong, then I guess my explanation for why he ruled it the way he did doesn't matter.

Anyhow, we all know that a "Set" is not considered a "Summon".

When Sangan is "Set" on the field face-down, he is not successfully summoned, and like the majority of effect monsters (except the Gardna Family), they do not have an effect while face-down.

The first opportunity to actually summon Sangan "to the field" can only come from Flip Summoning him face-up from being Set.

When Sangan is Flip Summoned, his summon can be negated by Horn of Heaven. In that case, it would be as if he never hit the field.

I admit, there are holes in this explanation, especially since it doesn't explain why you can still get Sangan's effect when he is tributed face-down, and sent to the Graveyard, but, pointing to the actual ruling on Sangan, it clearly states that "IF" his summon is negated (to include Flip, Normal, or Special), you do not get his effect.

This actually brings us back to why it may make sense. If you flip it face-up to tribute it, it's considered summoned and can be negated. If you tribute (or it gets sent/destroyed) it face-down, it's sent to the Graveyard where its effect activates, since it was sent from the field.

Again, this is just my take on why it may be more right than wrong.....

Don't shoot the messenger, just remember how we all thought a certain card (whose initials are "E. F.") worked, and how it actually turned out.
 
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Maybe it's because you have to actually pick the card up off the field in order to flip it over, and that's why it forgets it was already on the field!?...:p......I'm just kidding!.....or...am...I?...:rolleyes:
 
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Yeah, well, I wasn't going to go there. Find out where the "ether" is when a card blinks out of existence at that event horizon between set and summon.

Besides, according to David Hume, we can't really conclude that the monster was originally there between the set and the flip summon. Correlation doesn't mean causation... 8^D Man, I gotta stop the ambient music...makes me wig out a bit too much 8^D
 
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