sillva/goldd + creator + cosr

[1cup]

do excuse if this has been posed before.

here's the situation.
field: faceup the creator
faceup card of safe return [cosr]
in my hand i have a sillva
in my graveyard i have a blue-eyes white dragon. [bewd]

i use creator's effect, i discard sillva to special summon bewd from the grave. special summoning bewd, cosr activates and i draw.
since sillva was discarded to the grave by effect (creator's discard is an effect, not cost), sillva is also special summoned to the field, thus cosr activates again.

this is correct, right?

 

[DH2K4]

Sadly not, The Creator "Sends" cards to the graveyard, it does not "Discard" them.

The only part you were wrong about in your scenario, was Silva's effect activating, Silva returning to the field, and CoSR activating. Everything else is right.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Actually, it would depend on your decisions after activating both effects. Card of Safe Return is an optional "you can" effect. As such, the effect will only trigger when the very last thing to occur in a chain is the Special Summon of a monster. When you discarded Sillva, Warlord of Dark World, you activated both The Creator's and Sillva's effects at the same time. Simultaneous effects go on a chain in the order of your choosing. If you place Sillva first on the chain it would resolve last, and since its secondary effect is not triggering it would trigger Card of Safe Return when it resolved. Blue-Eyes would not, as it's Special Summoned in the middle of a chain. If you The Creators effect first on the chain, the it would be the last to resolve, and Blue-Eye's Special Summon would trigger Card of Safe Return, but not Sillva for the same reasons as above. Either way, you only trgger Card of Safe Return when the last thing to occur was the Special Summon of a monster.


EDIT: Ooops. Forgot about that "send" vs "discard" issue. That alters my comments completely. Sending Sillva will not trigger his effect, so you will only get the Special Summon for The Creator, and you will only trigger Card of Safe Return once

 

[1cup]

my hat's off to jedi.
ty for the linking edits.

i guess you're right. send v discard. there are more obfuscating wordings on cards out there.

a little variation:

Ojamagic
Normal Spell

When this card is sent from the hand or the field to the Graveyard, add 1 each of "Ojama Green", "Ojama Yellow" and "Ojama Black" from your Deck to your hand.

in this case, bewd is summoned, i can chain cosr, then i can bring the ojamas to my hand, right?

 

[1cup]

oops.

forget that last post i made.
i just found a ruling on ronin:

"¢ Because the effect of "Ojamagic" is mandatory, it will activate even if it is sent to the Graveyard as the cost for another card, or in the middle of a chain.

 

[Digital Jedi]

my hat's off to jedi.
ty for the linking edits.

i guess you're right. send v discard. there are more obfuscating wordings on cards out there.

a little variation:

Ojamagic
Normal Spell

When this card is sent from the hand or the field to the Graveyard, add 1 each of "Ojama Green", "Ojama Yellow" and "Ojama Black" from your Deck to your hand.

in this case, bewd is summoned, i can chain cosr, then i can bring the ojamas to my hand, right?

As you pointed out, Ojamagic is a Manditory Effect and not a "you can" Optional Effect. Though Card of Safe Return would have to be face-up on the field to trigger, it can't be chained. And you would be doing the Simultaneous Effects Go On Chain (SEGOC) in this case, as both Ojamagic and The Creator activate at the same time. Provided you place The Creator on the chain first, when the chain resolves the last thing to have happened will be a Special Summon.

 

[ygo doc]

As you pointed out, Ojamagic is a Manditory Effect and not a "you can" Optional Effect. Though Card of Safe Return would have to be face-up on the field to trigger, it can't be chained. And you would be doing the Simultaneous Effects Go On Chain (SEGOC) in this case, as both Ojamagic and The Creator activate at the same time. Provided you place The Creator on the chain first, when the chain resolves the last thing to have happened will be a Special Summon.

"Ojamagic" and "The Creator's" effects do NOT go on chain. The effects of "Ojamagic" and "Card of Safe Return" will go on chain.

When you activate and RESOLVE "The Creator's" effect, then you trigger "Ojamagic's" mandatory effect and "Card of Safe Return's" optional effect. These 2 effects go on a new chain: "Ojamagic" 1st because it is mandatory, then CoSR 2nd since it is optional. When you resolve this chain, the timing for CoSR is still correct and you get to draw a card.

doc

 

[HorusMaster]

do excuse if this has been posed before.

here's the situation.
field: faceup the creator
faceup card of safe return [cosr]
in my hand i have a sillva
in my graveyard i have a blue-eyes white dragon. [bewd]

i use creator's effect, i discard sillva to special summon bewd from the grave. special summoning bewd, cosr activates and i draw.
since sillva was discarded to the grave by effect (creator's discard is an effect, not cost), sillva is also special summoned to the field, thus cosr activates again.

this is correct, right?

And isn't The Creator's effect of sending one card to the graveyard considered a "cost"? You can't special summon without the "cost" of sending one card to the graveyard.

 

[Kyhotae]

No.

"¢ Sending 1 card from your hand to the Graveyard is not a cost to activate the effect of "The Creator". It is part of the effect. So if your opponent chains "Disappear" to remove the targeted monster in your Graveyard from play, the effect of "The Creator" disappears and you do not send 1 card from your hand to the Graveyard.

 

[Jathro]

In other words, it's not "Send 1 card to the Graveyard. Do some action." You select the card when you choose to activate The Creator's effect.

 

[Digital Jedi]

"Ojamagic" and "The Creator's" effects do NOT go on chain. The effects of "Ojamagic" and "Card of Safe Return" will go on chain.

When you activate and RESOLVE "The Creator's" effect, then you trigger "Ojamagic's" mandatory effect and "Card of Safe Return's" optional effect. These 2 effects go on a new chain: "Ojamagic" 1st because it is mandatory, then CoSR 2nd since it is optional. When you resolve this chain, the timing for CoSR is still correct and you get to draw a card.

doc

I guess I'm 0 for 2 on this one, doc. I'm so used to the send or discard being part of the cost, I forgot it was part of the resolution this time. So yes, Card of Safe Return and Ojamagic are the ones that activate at the same time. Had the send part of The Creator's effect been a cost, then it would have been Card of Safe Return and the Creator forming the SEGOC. But because the send is part of The Creator is part of the resolution, Ojamagic has to wait for The Creator's resolution to resolve before it can activate, which just happens to coincide with Card of Safe Return's activation.

I should point out, however, that we sometimes use the phrase "missing the timing" in the wrong context. Card of Safe return can only miss the timing for its effect to trigger. Once its already successfully triggered, then it can't miss the timing when it goes to resolve. Optional Effects only miss the timing for activation and not resolution.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Had the send part of The Creator's effect been a cost, then it would have been Card of Safe Return and the Creator forming the SEGOC. But because the send is part of The Creator is part of the resolution, Ojamagic has to wait for The Creator's resolution to resolve before it can activate, which just happens to coincide with Card of Safe Return's activation.

A trigger effect always has to wait for the current chain to finish resolving before it can be added to a chain. Even if the chain hasn't begun resolving yet, (Archfiend, Gardna asside)

It doesn't make a difference whether a card is triggered by another card's activation or resolution. Ojamagic will still wait for a new chain when discarded to activate a card.

I should point out, however, that we sometimes use the phrase "missing the timing" in the wrong context. Card of Safe return can only miss the timing for its effect to trigger. Once its already successfully triggered, then it can't miss the timing when it goes to resolve. Optional Effects only miss the timing for activation and not resolution.

Missing the timing means it misses its chance to go on to the chain. A triggered effect is "triggered" when the event that happens (even though it has to wait before it can "activate") This is important when dealing with cards that might change control, before activating, as the controller when the card was triggered will control the effect.

 

[Digital Jedi]

An optional effect will not even trigger if the event that it triggers off of happens in the middle of a chain. This is clearly spelled out in numerous "Missing the Timing" rulings.

Heart of the Underdog
Missing the Timing: Suppose you have 3 copies of "Heart of the Underdog" on the field, and draw a Normal Monster Card during your Draw Phase. All 3 copies of "Heart of the Underdog" immediately activate their effects, and because they activate simultaneously, they form a chain with Chain Links 1, 2, and 3. If you draw a Normal Monster card for Chain Link 3 or Chain Link 2, your copies of "Heart of the Underdog" do not activate again. This is because they are "when... you can" optional Trigger Effects, and you "miss the timing" because you drew the Normal Monster Card during a chain and not as Chain Link 1. However, if you draw a Normal Monster Card for Chain Link 1, all 3 copies of "Heart of the Underdog" will activate their effects again.​

Once an effect has been successfully triggered and placed on the chain, there is no missing the timing. You can only miss the timing for the activation of an effect.

Peten the Dark Clown
Missing the Timing: "Peten the Dark Clown" is a "when... you can" optional Trigger Effect. This means that "Peten" being sent to the Graveyard has to be the very last thing that happened in order to activate its effect.

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is Tributed for a Tribute Summon, the last thing that happened was that a monster was Summoned, so the effect of "Peten" does not activate.

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is Tributed for "Mystik Wok" or "Cannon Soldier", the last thing that happened was that those effects resolved, so the effect of "Peten" does not activate.

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is destroyed in a chain and not as Chain Link 1, his effect does not activate. (Example: "Pot of Greed" is activated and "Ring of Destruction" is chained, targeting "Peten".)

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is destroyed by "Cyber Jar", the last thing that happened was that monsters were Summoned to the field, so the effect of "Peten" does not activate.

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is discarded as a cost for "Tribe-Infecting Virus" or "Raigeki Break", the last thing that happened was that those effects resolved, so the effect of "Peten" does not activate.

If "Peten the Dark Clown" is discarded because of "Morphing Jar" or "Card Destruction", the last thing that happened was that both players drew cards. So the effect of "Peten" does not activate.

Assault on GHQ
If you destroy "Peten the Dark Clown", you miss the timing on its activation because it was not the last effect to resolve, so you cannot Special Summon another "Peten the Dark Clown".​

"Missing the Timing" is all about missing your chance to activate an effect, not resolve it.

 

[novastar]

DaGuy was pointing out the VERY important distinction between "trigger" and "activate"...two totally different things.

Any effect that is a Trigger, be it Mandatory or Optional, will ALWAYS "trigger" when the triggering event occurs. Whether/When you can actually "activate" is a different story.

That said, Optional Triggers require a response window (timing) created by the actual triggering event in order for the controller to even be given a choice to activate. All of your quotes support this ... in fact you highlighted all of the relevent parts which state "activate" NOT "trigger" for a reason.

I think we all understand, but it's important to be clear on it.

 

[ygo doc]

An optional effect will not even trigger if the event that it triggers off of happens in the middle of a chain. This is clearly spelled out in numerous "Missing the Timing" rulings...

Digital, you are confusing "trigger" with "activate". When an optional effect is triggered that does not mean it gets to activate. In all the UDE rulings you quoted, it states "the effect does not activate". It never says the effect is "not triggered".

Here's what UDE says about "Missing the Timing":

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Missing the Timing - Optional Trigger Effects[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Added June 2005 [/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sometimes a Trigger Effect says that "when" a condition happens, you "can" activate its effect. In this case, you are only allowed to activate the effect when the condition being met was the last thing to happen in the game (activating cards & effects that haven't resolved yet doesn't count). If the triggering condition happened for an optional Trigger Effect, but something else has happened after that, then you have "missed the timing" and you cannot activate it. For example, this can happen if the optional Trigger Effect monster was Tributed for a Tribute Summon or to activate a card effect, or if the triggering condition happened in a chain and wasn't Chain Link 1, or if another card effect or game effect has happened since then. The triggering condition has to be the very last thing that happened in order for a "when"¦ you can" optional Trigger Effect to activate.

UDE recognizes that the optional trigger effect DOES trigger when the proper event occurs; however, you cannot ACTIVATE the effect unless the trigger was the last thing to happen in the game. Basically, your "option" can be taken away from you by further events in the game; hence the term "Missing the Timing".

"Missing the Timing" is all about missing your chance to activate an effect, not resolve it.

This I agree with.

doc

[/font]

 

[Digital Jedi]

Where in any UDE documentation, does it state the "trigger" is not synonymous with "activate"? I've seen nothing, nor ever heard of anything that wouldn't make "trigger" just another form of activation. This would mean that there are now three parts to a Trigger Effect: Trigger, Activation and Resolution. Not even the quote from the FAQ that Doc provides insinuates that "activation" is something different from "trigger", nor do any of the rulings I've posted. I'd be curious to know where this way of thinking stems from.

This I agree with.

This was my initial statement to start.

 

[novastar]

Now it sounds like you are simply argueing for the sake of it.

Triggering is when an activation sequence is qued up automatically (by an event taking place) and waits for an available slot to commence.

Activation is the actual process of creating an Chain Link.

Like the difference between [coc]king a gun and actually firing it.

The fact that you can have an effect that triggers but lets you manually choose whether to activate or not (ie. Optional Triggers) proves there is a distinction. The UDE FAQ quote absolutely implies that, what i wanna see is a quote that implies that they are synonymous, and then we can talk.

 

[skey23]

Scenario:

P1 has "Spirit Reaper" in face-up Defense position.
P2 has a set "Raigeki Break" from a previous turn, and "Night Assailiant" in hand.
P1 plays "Mystical Space Typhoon" targeting P2s set card.
P2 chains his "Raigeki Break", discarding "Night Assailant" for the cost, and targeting "Spirit Reaper". The effect of "Night Assailant" is Triggered at this time, but it can't Activate until the current chain resolves, so it will wait and begin a new chain.
P1 doesn't respond.
P2 doesn't respond.
Resolve chain.
"Spirit Reaper" is destroyed by "Raigeki Break".
"Raigeki Break" is destroyed by "Mystical Space Typhoon".
"Night Assailant"s effect will now Activate and P2 chooses "Magician of Faith" to return to their hand.
P1 doesn't respond to this activation.
P2 doesn't respond to this activation.
"Night Assailant"s effect will now Resolve and "Magician of Faith" is returned to P2s hand.

I hope this has helped to explain the whole Trigger, Activate, Resolve thing.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Now it sounds like you are simply argueing for the sake of it.

Triggering is when an activation sequence is qued up automatically (by an event taking place) and waits for an available slot to commence.

Activation is the actual process of creating an Chain Link.

Like the difference between [coc]king a gun and actually firing it.

The fact that you can have an effect that triggers but lets you manually choose whether to activate or not (ie. Optional Triggers) proves there is a distinction. The UDE FAQ quote absolutely implies that, what i wanna see is a quote that implies that they are synonymous, and then we can talk.

Why would I argue just for the sake of arguing, Nova? You should know me better then that, by now. I understand the logic your using to explain what it is. I'm simply not seeing evidence that what your suggesting is what it is. It sounds like a nice "fix" for certain scenarios, but I don't see it implied at all in the FAQ quote or in any of the rulings. You can't fault me for not seeing something and then questioning whether it officially exist or not, can you? Certainly if something is implied, I can acknowledge that it has been implied. But I don't even see its implication. I'm not arguing just to be difficult, and as long as we've been members here, you should know that by now. We've disagreed before, and all I'm searching for is the specifics of your argument. Example are fine to explain the mechanics of what you see happening. What I was asking for was the documentation that verifies those are the mechanics, because at this point it would seem that either argument can fit the mechanics of the game, just with varying results. And you know I've never been afraid to question a common belief if I feel it may be in error. I can live with being wrong, but I need to see the evidence and reasonings that make it so.

 

[ygo doc]

Hmmm... When I read UDE's explanation, I would interpret trigger as meaning "When a condition happens". Per the rulebook, it would mean "When you have fulfilled a specific requirement".

"Trigger" is a description of the type of Effect and is not synonymous with "activate".

Remember we have 5 major effects:
I. Flip Effect
II. Continuous Effect
III. Ignition (Cost) Effect
IV. Trigger Effect
A. Mandatory
B. Optional
V. Multi-Trigger Effect

Mandatory Trigger Effect = "when this condition happens, you will get to activate this effect".

Optional Trigger Effect = "when this condition happens, you CAN activate this effect, but only when the condition being met was the last thing to happen in the game".

Activate = declared intention to use an effect.
Resolve = actual application and/or use of an effect.

UDE is not going to provide documentation to state that "trigger" is not synonymous with "activate" because there simply is no need to do so. These are 2 widely differing terms.

doc