Spell Absorption: Ruling Contradiction

[CerezScypher]

Spell Absorption

Each time a Spell Card is activated, increase the Life Points of this card's controller by 500 points.

1. The effect of "Spell Absorption" is applied when the Spell Card is activated. You cannot chain to this effect. The effect is applied immediately. For example, when activating "Tribute to The Doomed" while "Spell Absorption" is on the field: (1) pay the cost by discarding a card, (2) activate "Tribute to The Doomed", (3) your Life Points increase for "Spell Absorption", (4) check for chaining and resolve "Tribute to The Doomed".

2. If the activation of a Spell Card is negated by "Magic Jammer", etc., then you will not gain Life Points for "Spell Absorption".

If ruling 1 is correct, then you've already gained Life Points before Magic Jammer could even be chained, much less resolved. It should probably say to subtract the Life Points that Spell Absorption gave you for that spell.

 

[densetsu_x]

Remember though that "Magic Jammer" negates the activation so it's as if that spell card was never played. The same would be true if they chained "Magic Drain" or "Solemn Judgment". If the activation is negated, you don't gain the 500.

 

[CerezScypher]

I realize that negating the activation makes it as if the card was never activated, but ruling 1 says that you would have already gained the Life Points before the activation was negated by the next card in the chain. How can you not gain the 500 if you already did? You would have to subtract it once the negation card resolved.

 

[John Danker]

I realize that negating the activation makes it as if the card was never activated, but ruling 1 says that you would have already gained the Life Points before the activation was negated by the next card in the chain. How can you not gain the 500 if you already did? You would have to subtract it once the negation card resolved.

I think the intitial activation (playing the card) and the effect being used (another spell card being played while Spell Absorption is active and face up) is being confused here.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I realize that negating the activation makes it as if the card was never activated, but ruling 1 says that you would have already gained the Life Points before the activation was negated by the next card in the chain. How can you not gain the 500 if you already did? You would have to subtract it once the negation card resolved.

It's because you don't gain Life Points. Magic Jammer negates the "activation". By the time Magic Jammer resolves, the "activation" of that Spell card is no longer there...

This case is true also for Skilled Dark Magician, The Legendary Flame Lord, etc.

 

[Digital Jedi]

This is interesting. So negate means to "undo" or "rewind"?

 

[babyarm]

It's the reason that Solemn Judgment can negate the summon of Jinzo.

 

[masterwoo0]

This is interesting. So negate means to "undo" or "rewind"?

To "undo" or "rewind" would be insinuating that the action indeed took place in order to "undo it".

That would be like saying:


Player 1 activates "Call of the Haunted" and targets "Witch of the Black Forest"

Player 2 activates and chains "Seven Tools of the Bandit" to negate and destroy "Call of the Haunted"


If you were to "undo" Call of the Haunted", you would be saying that Witch of the Black Forest was actually summoned to the field and then sent back to the Graveyard because the Special Summon through Call of the Haunted was rewound.

By that logic, you would be able to activate Witch's effect because it was still sent from the field to the Graveyard, and that we know is not how it really happened....

{EDIT} I would say "negate" simply means to "prevent from taking place".

 

[John Danker]

Which is why we're debating the Royal Oppression vs. Vampire Lord / Phoenix special summoning themselves question.

 

[CerezScypher]

I think the intitial activation (playing the card) and the effect being used (another spell card being played while Spell Absorption is active and face up) is being confused here.

I'm following ruling 1. Here's what I mean:

My Spell Absorption is on the field face-up.
I pay the cost for Tribute to The Doomed.
I activate and select a target for Tribute to The Doomed.
Spell Absorption's continuous effect gives me 500 Life Points.
My opponent chains Magic Jammer.
Magic Jammer negates the activation and effect of Tribute to The Doomed.

ruling 2 states that I do not gain Life Points, does this mean you need to rewind and go through the chain over again without adding the 500 Life Points, or do you just subtract the 500 once Magic Jammer resolves?

 

[John Danker]

I'm following ruling 1. Here's what I mean:

My Spell Absorption is on the field face-up.
I pay the cost for Tribute to The Doomed.
I activate and select a target for Tribute to The Doomed.
Spell Absorption's continuous effect gives me 500 Life Points.
My opponent chains Magic Jammer.
Magic Jammer negates the activation and effect of Tribute to The Doomed.

ruling 2 states that I do not gain Life Points, does this mean you need to rewind and go through the chain over again without adding the 500 Life Points, or do you just subtract the 500 once Magic Jammer resolves?

The first ruling is poorly written (IMO) Lets seperate it out and pay attention to the highlighed words....

The effect of "Spell Absorption" is applied when the Spell Card is activated.

You cannot chain to this effect. The effect is applied immediately. For example, when activating "Tribute to The Doomed" (John's note: Since Tribute to The Doomed is being activated we know that the activation of Spell Absorption has resolved. The activation of Tribute to The Doomed is a new chain.) while "Spell Absorption" is on the field: (1) pay the cost by discarding a card, (2) activate "Tribute to The Doomed", (3) your Life Points increase for "Spell Absorption", (4) check for chaining and resolve "Tribute to The Doomed".

The activation of Spell Absorption can be chained to. It's the effect of Spell Absorption that cannot be chained to because it's continuous. Therefore, when Spell Absorption is activated it can be chained to with Magic Jammer / Magic Drain, however, once Spell absoprtions activation is complete and is not chained to...the next time a spell card is activated Spell Absorption's effect happens and the effect cannot be chained to (since it is continuous)

 

[JOls]

Yes, there definitely is a contradiction. But in essence, I agree with John. The first ruling is focused on the fact that you cannot chain to the effect of Spell Absorption. But the timing as to when you gain the life points seems a bit off, contradicted by ruling 2 which specifically shows that you do not get the life points when a spell has been negated. But how can you not get the life points when you already got them before some unidentified spell was magic jammed? There's no room for doubt in what was intended in ruling #2. But is it "undone" or is it applied again in reverse? I don't know.

Here's a scenario: Player 1 has 400 life points left. A face up Spell Absorption on his side of the field. Player 2 has a face-up Bad Reaction to Simochi. Player 2 plays Ookazi, which would do 800 LP of damage, plus the 500 LP gain will be turned into a 500 LP loss due to BRtS. Player 1 chains Magic Jammer. Is Player 1 still in the game, or did he lose before he could chain Magic Jammer, since his life points would have dropped to -100 before getting a chance to chain Magic Jammer to Ookazi?

 

[Manta]

This ruling looks EXACTLY like the one made with Jinzo and counter traps.

Jinzo cannot be trap holed, but he can get smited by solemn judgment, even though both are traps and are both activated at the same time.

This is just once of those things which show that counter traps have a slightly higher override than other spell speed 2 chains. It's a good thing that there isn't many of them.

 

[John Danker]

I don't see where there is a problem. If Spell Absorption is active on the field and another spell card is activated, even if Magic Jammer / Magic Drain negates the card, it was indeed activated. Spell Absorption's effect activates immediately and can't be chained to...therefore, you can't chain Magic Jammer / Magic Drain.....but I'm working....and not likely thinking clearly....and I'm thinking out loud without doing research (knowing I shouldn't be posting without doing research but I'm up for abuse today so hitting send anyway)

 

[JOls]

I don't see where there is a problem. If Spell Absorption is active on the field and another spell card is activated, even if Magic Jammer / Magic Drain negates the card, it was indeed activated. Spell Absorption's effect activates immediately and can't be chained to...therefore, you can't chain Magic Jammer / Magic Drain.....but I'm working....and not likely thinking clearly....and I'm thinking out loud without doing research (knowing I shouldn't be posting without doing research but I'm up for abuse today so hitting send anyway)

Nonono, not chaining Magic Jammer/Magic Drain to Spell Absorptions effect -- chaining it to the other spell that was activated. That's where you're not understanding the issue. Magic Jammer jams the original spell card and so therefore, according to ruling #2, Spell Absorption didn't give you the 500 LP increase. Or did it, and then it was taken away? That's what I'm trying to get at with my scenario. ruling #2 is not about chaining Magic Jammer to Spell Absorption.

 

[JOls]

This ruling looks EXACTLY like the one made with Jinzo and counter traps.

Jinzo cannot be trap holed, but he can get smited by solemn judgment, even though both are traps and are both activated at the same time.

This is just once of those things which show that counter traps have a slightly higher override than other spell speed 2 chains. It's a good thing that there isn't many of them.

you might be onto something there...

I never understood that ruling on Solemn Judgement. I mean, you can't CHAIN to the summoning of Jinzo, so Jinzo is already on the field. So how can you suddenly turn over and activate Solemn Judgement? How is it that, even though Jinzo is now completely summoned and his effect is now supposed to be continuous and in play, that you can start a new chain, activate a spell speed 3 trap that is so fast, it goes back in time and allows itself to be activated because it has already destroyed Jinzo. But maybe that's just it. It does go back in time. If that's the case, then it would make sense that chaining magic jammer goes back in time, negates the activation of the spell card and thus you would never get the 500 LP increase to begin with. So basically, you are redoing the chain from that point.

 

[John Danker]

Nonono, not chaining Magic Jammer/Magic Drain to Spell Absorptions effect -- chaining it to the other spell that was activated. That's where you're not understanding the issue. Magic Jammer jams the original spell card and so therefore, according to ruling #2, Soul Absorption didn't give you the 500 LP increase. Or did it, and then it was taken away? That's what I'm trying to get at with my scenario. ruling #2 is not about chaining Magic Jammer to Soul Absorption.

I understand completely....or I think I do anyway <smirk> Lets look at this again...

Player 1 has Spell Absorption is active on the field.

Player 2 activate Tribute to the Doomed and pays the cost.

Spell Absorption's effect activates.

Chain Link 1-Tribute to the Doomed
Chain Link 2-Spell Absorption's effect

Since Spell Absorption's effect activates immediately after Tribute to the Doomed has been activated...and Spell Absorption's effect can't be chained to.....Player 1 can't even activate Magic Jammer / Magic Drain to negate Tribute to the Doomed.

 

[JOls]

I understand completely....or I think I do anyway <smirk> Lets look at this again...

Player 1 has Spell Absorption is active on the field.

Player 2 activate Tribute to the Doomed and pays the cost.

Spell Absorption's effect activates.

Chain Link 1-Tribute to the Doomed
Chain Link 2-Spell Absorption's effect

Since Spell Absorption's effect activates immediately after Tribute to the Doomed has been activated...and Spell Absorption's effect can't be chained to.....Player 1 can't even activate Magic Jammer / Magic Drain to negate Tribute to the Doomed.

That's an interesting perspective. So you're saying that you cannot chain magic jammer to any spell if spell absorption is on the field. Hmmmm....So why the reason for ruling #2?

 

[John Danker]

Quite honestly....I shouldn't even be posting this morning. I'm in the middle of a complex project at work and I'm probably way off base. As I said I was just spewing words off the top of my head thinking out loud. You're right, why the #2 ruling then?

 

[JOls]

the reason is that the two are contradictory, which is exactly what the original post by Cerez was stating...

I honestly don't think Spell Absorption will stop you from chaining counter traps to other spell cards. That doesn't seem like a very nice card if it did that... Oh how that would be abused if it did! I think the intention of ruling #1 was to indicate that you don't do a chain. Just increase the life points. Ruling #2 is obviously intended to prevent somebody from getting life points if the spell's activation was negated. If that is the desire, then how do you resolve between the two. That's why I created the Ookazi/BRTS/SA/MJ scenario. If we can get an answer to it, then we will know.