Targets and activation eligability

Ah yes, targets; possibly one of the most frustrating aspects of Yu-Gi-Oh for a judge. At least in one sense; the sense that there are no clear cut rules on determining if a card targets or not. A judge can not always determine is a card is targeting or not based on the card's text, the only clear cut way to determine this, just by looking at a card's text, is if the card has written on it "specifically designate", "target", or "designate". The most basic rule of determining if a card has a targeting effect or not is if a card requires an opponent to announce its mark then the card is has a targeting effect. Another rule, which is always true, is that targets are announced at activation.
The most common annoyance in relationship to the topic at hand is Creature Swap. Creature Swap is not a targeting effect because Creature Swap's marks are chosen at resolution, not activation; but why? The reason is that it is an effect that requires both players to chose a monster. Creature Swap uses the word "select", this trend can be seen by looking at cards like Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave, etc.
So the best guide I can give you for determining if a card targets is as follows. If a card requires the person who activates it to announce its mark then it is a targeting effect. Targets are chosen at activation. If a card allows or requires both players to do the same thing then that card's marks are chosen at resolution; this kind of card is usually coupled with the word "select".
So what happens when card A targets card B and card B is moved some place else before card A resolves? The simple answer is that card A resolves without effect. Some people, even judges, will use the word "disappears" or "fizzles", the correct terminology is "resolves without effect. So if I activate Monster Reborn targeting your Dark Magician of Chaos then you can chain Call of the Haunted and target that same Dark Magician of Chaos. Resolution happens in reverse order so Call of the Haunted resolves first Special Summoning Dark Magician of Chaos, then Monster Reborn resolves"¦ Dark Magician of Chaos is no longer in the graveyard so Monster Reborn resolves without effect.
This is true even for cards that do not technically target like Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave or Creature Swap. If both players have one monster on the field and player A activates Creature Swap followed by player B chaining to creature swap with Compulsory Evacuation Device, targeting either monster, then Creature Swap would resolve without effect.

 

[exiledforcefreak]

It's a work in progress, feel free to add in things I have forgotten, make suggestions, etc.

@mods feel free to put on Netrepâ„¢ site

 

[exiledforcefreak]

I could really use some help here, especially because I think this section is too short...

 

[novastar]

Some people, even judges, will use the word "disappears" or "fizzles", the correct terminology is "resolves without effect.

Actually, the correct term (in most cases) is "dissappear" as "resolves without effect" is really misleading. It also depends on what type of effect you are refering to, for example of a targeted effect loses its target (before resolution) it "dissappears" and does not resolve. There are lots of variations, but in general this is true.

This is true even for cards that do not technically target like Spear Cretin, The Shallow Grave or Creature Swap.

[Spear Cretin] and [The Shallow Grave] are ruled as targeted effects...my guess...because you are special summoning from the graveyard.

 

[soulwarrior]

I though an effect is only considered targeting when the player who activated the effect chooses all the targets on ACTIVATION.

This makes sense with Creature Swap (you choose them on resolution an the opponent chooses one target -> therefore, it's not considered targeting).
and so far with almost every other card I've come up...

It wouldn't make sense with The Shallow Grave nor Spear Cretin, so maybe it's wrong what I said...
Just feel free to correct me, in the end we'll all profit. xD

soul

 

[novastar]

I though an effect is only considered targeting when the player who activated the effect chooses all the targets on ACTIVATION.

This makes sense with Creature Swap (you choose them on resolution an the opponent chooses one target -> therefore, it's not considered targeting).
and so far with almost every other card I've come up...

It wouldn't make sense with The Shallow Grave nor Spear Cretin, so maybe it's wrong what I said...
Just feel free to correct me, in the end we'll all profit. xD

soul

I would definately be inclined to agree with you...unfortunately...

From the Official Card FAQ at www.yugioh-card.com under "Disappear"

DISAPPEAR

When a card that selects a card in the Graveyard as a target, such as "Monster Reborn", "Mask of Darkness", "Magician of Faith", "Spear Cretin", or "The Shallow Grave", is activated, you may chain "Disappear" to remove the targeted card from play, and the "Monster Reborn", etc., will resolve without effect. This is because these cards select their target at activation, not resolution.

They specifically state that Spear Cretin and The Shallow Grave are targeted effects.

 

[soulwarrior]

They specifically state that Spear Cretin and The Shallow Grave are targeted effects.

Hmm... unfortunately I don't think it's an error in their FAQ's...

Really sad that there are so many exceptions to the rare most-of-the-time correct easy-to-remember-rules.... -_-

soul

 

[leee]

Hi to everybody, I have a detail to ask:
when i active a card that a cost requires and target a monster, the choice of the monster target Always goes sort after the payment or particular cases exist?

 

[Raigekick]

Hi to everybody, I have a detail to ask:
when i active a card that a cost requires and target a monster, the choice of the monster target Always goes sort after the payment or particular cases exist?

Raigeki Break
Trap
Discard 1 card from your hand to destroy 1 card on the field.

When you activate this card, you discard 1 card from your hand and send it to the Graveyard and then target a card on the field. On resolution, destroy the targeted card.

 

[leee]

ok, the choice of the target must normally be made after the payment, however' I have a doubt respect skull lair, according to me in this case the choice of the monster adversary must be made before the payment, when I decide to activate the effect of skull lair, in fact if the choice of the monster target must be taken place after I remove the monsters from the graveyard, then is possible to remove an any number of monsters from my graveyard, even if then the effect doesn't resolve him.
Skull lair designates a monster as target?

 

[novastar]

ok, the choice of the target must normally be made after the payment, however' I have a doubt respect skull lair, according to me in this case the choice of the monster adversary must be made before the payment, when I decide to activate the effect of skull lair, in fact if the choice of the monster target must be taken place after I remove the monsters from the graveyard, then is possible to remove an any number of monsters from my graveyard, even if then the effect doesn't resolve him.
Skull lair designates a monster as target?

No targeting is ALWAYS first. Without a legal target you have no effect. You choose the target(s) and then total up the applicable cost.

Unfortunately this games order of operations when playing effects has not been detailed as it has in other games such as M:tg or VS.

Its funny you should mention Skull Lair, as it is a perfect example of the fact that you would select a legal monster and then based on the Star Level you would remove the appropriate number of cards to pay the cost.

So to recap...target(s) first...then total and pay cost...the effect becomes played or activated.

 

[John Danker]

This is a topic I'm digging deeper into and should have sooner. It's one of those topics that hasn't presented itself as a problem in my local meta so it's gone by the wayside. Thanks for everyone's input.

The card Dramatic Resuce has caught me with a brain fart concerning the topic of targeting. Due to it's text it would almost make it appear that as soon as your Amazoness monster is targeted you could activate Dramatic Rescue (before activation of the targeting card is complete) Obviously the timing of when a monster is targeted is key here. If, for instance, I had Mass Driver or Ectoplasmer active on the field and decided to target my Amazoness monster with one of them....if I can just target my Amazoness monster before it's actually used as a cost of activation and then activate Dramatic Rescue then it works. Logic though, tells me that I can't activate Dramatic Resuce until the activation of is complete.

I dunno, sometimes over-think things <laffin> There seems to always be an exception to the rule though so I'm running it past you folks in this thread. My brain isn't opperating in Yugioh mode right now....I'm at work

Thanks again for your input.

Dramatic Rescue
Card Text

You can only activate this card when a monster on your side of the field that includes "Amazoness" in its card name, or is named "Amazon Archer", is specifically designated as a target by a card. Return the targeted Monster Card to its owner's hand and Special Summon another monster from your hand in face-up Attack or Defense Position.

 

[novastar]

This was an arguement that i had with Alex Charsky concerning the order in VS. I too believed that cost should be paid first, based on what i had thought in YGO...but he presented a compelling arguement that made targeting an understandable first operation when activating an effect.

In that game the order of operations is as follows:

(i will translate this a little into YGO terminology)

Playing Effects

100.1 The effect is put up on the Chain Block.

100.2 You announce "modal" choices (for example Don Zaloog or Dark Coffin) where you are instructed to "Choose one of the following effects:"

100.2a If there are additional costs that come along with that choice, the player accounces the intention to pay them and how much.

100.3 Targets are chosen, and the legality of the targets is varified.

100.3a If any there are special choices as to how certain targets are affected, those are made here as well.

100.4 The total cost(s) to be paid is determined also adding or subtracting any additional costs or reductions. The total cost is then paid in any order.

100.5 After all the above steps are complete, the effect is now considered "played" or "activated".


The Skull Lair example seems to point right in the direction of this order. I do realize that this is YGO and not VS, but there seems to be no reason why a similar order should not exist here.

It is important to target first, because an effect's cost may depend on the number of targets chosen or the type of target chosen.

 

[Raigekick]

I don't really see the difference on paying the cost first then target or target first then pay the cost (except Skull Lair where the cost depends on the target). In Yugioh, you can't activate a card's effect if the card does not have a legal target, if the card can not resolve properly (except when Imperial Order is active), and if you can not pay the cost. So, to me, it doesn't really matter on the order because you have to target and pay the cost during activation before your opponent can respond.

 

[novastar]

I don't really see the difference on paying the cost first then target or target first then pay the cost (except Skull Lair where the cost depends on the target). In Yugioh, you can't activate a card's effect if the card does not have a legal target, if the card can not resolve properly (except when Imperial Order is active), and if you can not pay the cost. So, to me, it doesn't really matter on the order because you have to target and pay the cost during activation before your opponent can respond.

Targeting is only one aspect of things, and is just another choice that can alter the total cost.

The total cost is a summation of all your choices earlier. That is why it must come last, and by that i mean actually paying cost.

 

[Big Oldprankster]

Another example of targeting at activation is Tribe-Infecting Virus. Straight from the FAQ:

You declare the Type when you activate the effect and discard for the cost, not when the effect resolves, so your opponent can chain after you have announced which Type will be destroyed.

As explained here it gives the opponent an opportunity to chain.

 

[John Danker]

No one has dared address the question earlier in this thread though....and I don't blame them <smirk> Dramatic Rescue is just worded oddlly.

Can anyone give me an example of a trap card that could be activated before the end of a activation of another card effect?

If you look back in this thread you'll see why I'm asking. Dramatic Rescue states..."When your Amazoness monster is targeted...." So I'm wondering if a person would have to wait until the activation of a card is complete to activate Dramatic Rescue or as soon as your Amazoness monster is targeted....could be a big difference when it comes to targeting your Amazoness monster as a cost of activation.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

No one has dared address the question earlier in this thread though....and I don't blame them <smirk> Dramatic Rescue is just worded oddlly.

Can anyone give me an example of a trap card that could be activated before the end of a activation of another card effect?

If you look back in this thread you'll see why I'm asking. Dramatic Rescue states..."When your Amazoness monster is targeted...." So I'm wondering if a person would have to wait until the activation of a card is complete to activate Dramatic Rescue or as soon as your Amazoness monster is targeted....could be a big difference when it comes to targeting your Amazoness monster as a cost of activation.

It's a condition that must be met for it to activate. I don't believe it's a cost.

Trap Hole targets. And the condition for it to activate if the opponent summons a monster of 1000 ATK or higher.

 

[Raigekick]

No one has dared address the question earlier in this thread though....and I don't blame them <smirk> Dramatic Rescue is just worded oddlly.

Can anyone give me an example of a trap card that could be activated before the end of a activation of another card effect?

If you look back in this thread you'll see why I'm asking. Dramatic Rescue states..."When your Amazoness monster is targeted...." So I'm wondering if a person would have to wait until the activation of a card is complete to activate Dramatic Rescue or as soon as your Amazoness monster is targeted....could be a big difference when it comes to targeting your Amazoness monster as a cost of activation.

I can't think of any. And, as far as I know, one can not activate a card while a chain block is resolving. That said, targeting becomes tricky. When a card targets, it targets when it is activated. This is why you can use Dramatic Rescue after an oponent uses a card that targets your Amazoness monster.

For Spirit Reaper, his continuous effect works during a targeting card's resolution, not while it is being targeted when a card is activated. This is Spirit Reaper's effect, and this is why you can save Spirit Reaper when your opponent uses Tribute to the Doom and targets Spirit Reaper and you respond with Magic Jammer.

 

[John Danker]

It's a condition that must be met for it to activate. I don't believe it's a cost.

Trap Hole targets. And the condition for it to activate if the opponent summons a monster of 1000 ATK or higher.

Yes, trap hole targets and it would be easy enough to chain Dramitic Rescue to it's activation....I think you're missing my point though. Lets see if I can give an example....

I have Dramatic Rescue face down from a previous turn...I have Mass Driver active on the field. I have an Amazoness Palidin face up on the field and it's main phase 2.

Now I want to target my Amazoness Paladin with Mass Driver. The problem is that when I use Mass Driver it's cost is tributing a monster. So if I want to use Mass Driver to target my own Amazoness Paladin the cost of activation for Mass Driver is tributing my Amazoness Paladin, however, if I target Amazoness Paladin as my tribute monster for Mass Driver can I break into the activation with Dramatic Rescue....since my Amazoness monster has been targeted....before it has been tributed as part of the completion of activation of Mass Driver?

See where I'm going with this?