trample/piercing

[1cup]

i was reading on the UDE messageboard, and i was reading a post that said that monsters that trample/pierce, that inflicting the difference as battle damage is a continuous effect.
(apologies, lost the post)

at first i thought it was a trigger effect, based on the fact that the damage is not continuously inflicted to the oppoenent, but only in a battle with a monster with lower DEF.
(as in, this specific battle TRIGGERS the effect during the dmg step)

but i can see it as a continuous effect in that, the monster is always able to inflict the difference.

could someone tell me if i am wrong in believing that it is a continuous effect?
corollary: if it indeed is a continuous effect, could someone please better explain to me why it is a continuous effect?

 

[Ledah]

I say you are right in thinkig is a continuous


And the reason is because you never daclare the activation of the effect

You could say that the piercing damage is always on

 

[Entropy]

The way I think about it, the effect continuously modifies how you perform damage calculation.

Speaking figuratively, the effect replaces Page 8* of the rulebook with Page Q. Page Q is exactly the same as Page 8*, except that it includes the Trample part.

Of course, I'm horrible at these comparisons, so someone is bound to find a flaw in this analogy.

*Or whatever the page is that talks about damage calculation.

 

[1cup]

that's the way i'm thinking about it to.
not in those words, but along those lines.

but the thing that i can't seem to get over/around is the fact that a piercing monster doesn't always use his effect to inflict the difference as battle damage.

scenario 1.
billy's ATK-pos malicious edge attacks jean's ATK-pos cyber dragon.
nothing is activated
during the dmg step, sub-step 3, where damage is calculated, due to the game and how it works, 2600 > 2100, so in sub-step 4 500 is inflicted to jean.

scenario 2.
billy's ATK-pos malicious edge attacks jean's DEF-pos cyber dragon.
nothing is activated
during the dmg step sub-step 3, 2600 > 1600. normally since cydra is in def-pos, 0 dmg is inflicted to jean. since edge's ATK > cydra's DEF, edge's effect is applied and the difference (1000) is calculated and in sub-step 4 1000 is inflicted to jean.

same monster attacking the same monster, with the difference being the battle position of the defending monster. even though malicious edge's effect to inflict dmg is continuous, it is not being used in scenario 1.

which leads me to believe that piercing is worded as a trigger; the trigger being: the attack declaration where malicious edge attacks a defense position monster, whose DEF is lower than malicious edge's ATK (scenario 2).

reference for sub-steps: http://www.cogonline.net/threads.6503

 

[1cup]

also i guess while i'm asking for explanations:

minus negate attack, how is it that no counter trap targets?

[ch="RED"]WARNING[/ch]: plenty of words ahead

as long as the pre-requisite event occurs (a spell/trap/monster effect is activated) a counter can be activated. and thusly during resolution, it doesn't care what it was chained to, but it will negate it.

is that how it works?
for example:

tp summons e-hero stratos.
summon is not negated.
tp declares that he will use stratos' trigger effect to bring a d/e/evil hero to his hand.
ntp activates divine wrath
tp chains 7 tools.

divine wrath does not care that it is stratos that allowed it to be activated
7 tools does not care that it was divine wrath that allowed it to be activated.

since 7 tools was activated properly, when it resolves it basically acts like: "i don't really care which trap was activated in the chain link before me. but you are negated"

similarly, divine wrath was activated properly and when it would've resolved, it doesn't care that stratos allowed it to be activated and merely looks for the monster effect in the link before it and negates it, whatever it is.



the bad comparison i'm making in my head is creature swap.

it can be activated so long as each player has 1 monster and since the monsters to be swapped are chosen at resolution, swap itself does not target.

 

[Digital Jedi]

that's the way I'm thinking about it to.
not in those words, but along those lines.

but the thing that i can't seem to get over/around is the fact that a piercing monster doesn't always use his effect to inflict the difference as battle damage.

scenario 1.
billy's ATK-pos malicious edge attacks jean's ATK-pos cyber dragon.
nothing is activated
during the dmg step, sub-step 3, where damage is calculated, due to the game and how it works, 2600 > 2100, so in sub-step 4 500 is inflicted to jean.

scenario 2.
billy's ATK-pos malicious edge attacks jean's DEF-pos cyber dragon.
nothing is activated
during the dmg step sub-step 3, 2600 > 1600. normally since cydra is in def-pos, 0 dmg is inflicted to jean. since edge's ATK > cydra's DEF, edge's effect is applied and the difference (1000) is calculated and in sub-step 4 1000 is inflicted to jean.

same monster attacking the same monster, with the difference being the battle position of the defending monster. even though malicious edge's effect to inflict dmg is continuous, it is not being used in scenario 1.

which leads me to believe that piercing is worded as a trigger; the trigger being: the attack declaration where malicious edge attacks a defense position monster, whose DEF is lower than malicious edge's ATK (scenario 2).

reference for sub-steps: http://www.cogonline.net/threads.6503

Well, the only reason it wouldn't be used in Scenario 1, is because it didn't attack a Defense Position Monster. The effect was on, but not applicable. Battle Damage is inflicted through traditional Damage Calculation in Scenario 1. But in Scenario 2, Battle Damage is inflicted through the aid of a Continuous Effect.

Think of it as activating a Spell Card when Royal Decree is on the field. Royal Decree's effect is still on, but the card being activated doesn't apply. Activate a Trap Card however, and Royal Decree will see it immediately. It doesn't trigger off of the activation of the Trap Card, it simply always on and knows that one was activated and when one wasn't.

That said, I would have originally thought that Piercing was a Trigger Effect, and then I though "that would mean that it starts a chain during Damage Calculation". Then my head exploded and I had to fix my ceiling.

 

[Maruno]

Well, the only reason it wouldn't be used in Scenario 1, is because it didn't attack a Defense Position Monster. The effect was on, but not applicable.

That emboldened part is exactly what you need to know.

Consider Dimensional Fissure: "Any monster sent to the Graveyard is removed from play instead." It's a continuous effect, but it's obviously not always happening. It merely modifies what happens should the event it talks about (a monster being sent to the Graveyard) happens.

The same thing is true for Trample/Piercing Battle Damage. The event it looks for is that monster attacking a Defence Position monster. When that's the case, the Trample effect states to calculate the difference and inflict it as Battle Damage, just like if the attacked monster was in Attack Position.

The effect is continuous, but it is only applicable in certain circumstances.

Analogy: Continuous effects are kind of like the driving instructor, who automatically breaks when you're going too fast. He's always the driving instructor, but he'll only do his thing (break) when you're speeding.

 

[1cup]

thanks guys.