Ultimate Baseball Kid and Scapegoat

Digital Jedi

Digital Jedi

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While reworking my FIRE Deck I came upona an interesting question.

I run Scapegoat with DNA Transplant.
Ultimate Baseball Kids second effect allows me to send a fire monster to the graveyard to inflict 500 points of Damage to my opponent, similar to Cannon Soldier's effect but they have to be "sent" rather than Tributed. Can I "send" a "Sheep Token" to the Graveyard, not to inflict damage, but to clear a spot on the field? Obviously the token would never make it to the Graveyard and never inflict any damage, but could I still "send" the token for the effect just to get it out of the way? I'm unsure how that works with cost effects and I dimly remember reading something in the rulings but can't quite pin it down. Any insight would be appreciated.
 
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Seems like a great ideal. But, I don't think it will work because the tokens never get to the graveyard or even head that way. I think he would have to at least send them towards the graveyard for this to have a chance of being allowed.
 
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You know I never bothered to read Ultimate Baseball Kid's effect that closely. I have a friend who runs Horus/Fire with Baseball Kids & DNA Transplant and he uses this move all the time. But now that I read it again, I'd have to say that the combo isn't legal.

Man, is he ever gonna' be bummed. :p
 
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densetsu_x said:
Since "Scapegoat" tokens (or any token for that matter) can never be sent to the Graveyard, they wouldn't be valid targets to be used for "Ultimate Baseball Kid"'s effect.
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Well this is really the question. It's techinically untrue that tokens can't be sent to the Graveyard. It's just that on thier way to the Graveyard they cease to exist. Card effects that send monsters to the Graveyard, Hand, Deck or the removed from play area still start to send them in those general directions but usualy these are trying to do this at the resolution of the effect, I've never run into a situation where it was the cost of the effect. I'm leaning towards the idea that they are still legal targets to "send", but not get the effect. Honestly, I don't care about the effect, I just wan't to be able to clear up a Monster Card Zone if I need it. Any examples anyone can think of that I might be missing?
 
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One last kick to the dead horse just to reinforce the example, tokens never counted for the "send to the graveyard" portion of Chaos Emperor Dragon's effect either.
 
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jdos said:
One last kick to the dead horse just to reinforce the example, tokens never counted for the "send to the graveyard" portion of Chaos Emperor Dragon's effect either.
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Tokens don't count for the Life Point damage but they still get sent to the Graveyard even though the never make it there. They don't remain on the field. So you understand my confusion.
 
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Basically, 'send to the graveyard' as part of an effect can translate as 'Get this card off the field'. 'Send to the Graveyard' as a cost to pay for an effect means 'No, really, send this card to the Graveyard.'
 
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Baseball kid's effect....

Wow, if this is true there are so many unfinished games that I have played. That I may or may not have won.

Actually, I think his effect is more like fusion gate and polyermization. Why? because either way the goal is accomplished. A fusion, (way off subject). My point is: I doubt upperdeck was thinking about scapegoats when they made "the kid". I don't think his effect is a graveyard effect, but more a field effect. I'm not trying to dispute anyone, but his effect to launch a scapegoat with an attribute changed to fire, should work. Right? but you all have brought to light that backfire and scapegoats don't work. I never realized it. I don't know I'm very confused now, I'm thinking about taking a scapegoat out . O.k, I think I have it: maybe he can lauch goats due to the effect of the monsters being fire. but, since they don't hit the graveyard they receive no damage. So, basically I'd just be making room. I guess all I can use that strategy for is attacking not launching the goats for damage. Unless, upperdeck becomes completely sympathetic and says o.k you can do that>lol
 
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Dlanaan said:
For further clarification on this, look at the ruling for Emergency Provisions. Specifically:

While "Banisher of the Light" is face-up on the field, you cannot activate "Emergency Provisions" since it is impossible to send cards to the Graveyard.
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That is slightly different.

In the case of Spell/Trap effect, card's cannot be "Tributed" they are only "sent"...it is a function of the cards themselves.

All monster effects prior to this have used the wording of "Tribute" why this is different is anyone's guess...

If it truly is "Send to the graveyard" then no, Tokens cannot be used. If it is really Tribute, then yes Tokens can be used.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
Tokens don't count for the Life Point damage but they still get sent to the Graveyard even though the never make it there. They don't remain on the field. So you understand my confusion.
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The tokens don't count for the lifepoint damage because they don't get sent to the graveyard. That's my point. Tokens cannot be sent to the graveyard. If you attempt to do so, they are just removed from play, they don't stop in the graveyard first. So unless a ruling comes out that says Baseball Kid can actually launch tokens, or unless they errata him to say "tribute" instead of "send to the graveyard", then he can't launch tokens by the plain reading of the text in the context of current token rulings.
 
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jdos said:
The tokens don't count for the lifepoint damage because they don't get sent to the graveyard. That's my point. Tokens cannot be sent to the graveyard. If you attempt to do so, they are just removed from play, they don't stop in the graveyard first. So unless a ruling comes out that says Baseball Kid can actually launch tokens, or unless they errata him to say "tribute" instead of "send to the graveyard", then he can't launch tokens by the plain reading of the text in the context of current token rulings.
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True enough and I don't despute that in any way. My only consideration was that maybe the token could be "sent" for the effect without ever achieving the goal of the effect. In your example of Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End there was the ever so slightest insinuation that the tokens remained on the field after he activated his effect. Not that you were saying that, but someone not in the know could have inferred that, and I just wanted to clarify.

CED's effect, I presume then, is not a cost? His effect is similar in that he "sends" them to the Graveyard. But, of course, is effect may be labeled differently. I never thought of CED's effect as a cost but maybe I missed something.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
True enough and I don't despute that in any way. My only consideration was that maybe the token could be "sent" for the effect without ever achieving the goal of the effect. In your example of Chaos Emperor Dragon - Envoy of the End there was the ever so slightest insinuation that the tokens remained on the field after he activated his effect. Not that you were saying that, but someone not in the know could have inferred that, and I just wanted to clarify.

CED's effect, I presume then, is not a cost? His effect is similar in that he "sends" them to the Graveyard. But, of course, is effect may be labeled differently. I never thought of CED's effect as a cost but maybe I missed something.
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The only part of CED's effect that is a cost is paying the 1000lp. Everything else is part of the effect. So the effect attempts to send the tokens to the graveyard and inflict damage, but since the tokens never actually reach the grave, they don't count toward the damage total.

The difference, I think, between CED and Baseball Kid is that Baseball Kid is actually sending to the graveyard as a cost and since you can't actually pay that cost with a token since it doesn't meet the criteria, you couldn't even activate the effect. It would be "Kara Uchi", or activating an effect with no possibility of resolution, so it couldn't be done.

Too bad too, I really liked the combo. It was devastating.
 
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WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! there is one thing that we can all probably agree on here:

the 4 goat tokens + DNA transplant are a VERY nice ATK boost for the kid.... (+4000 makes him at 4500...) ^_^
 
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chaos general said:
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! there is one thing that we can all probably agree on here:

the 4 goat tokens + DNA transplant are a VERY nice ATK boost for the kid.... (+4000 makes him at 4500...) ^_^
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No argument there. :) + another 1000 for the one monster on your opponent's side of the field.
 
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