Wait, you gotta be kidding me on the ruling of Black Horn of Heaven

[drzero7]

- Like "Horn of Heaven", this card cannot be used against "Premature Burial", etc. It can be used against inherent Special Summon effects like "Cyber Dragon" or "Dark Necrofear".


I don't get that ruling. I mean, yeah, it's good for Cyber Dragon, Necrofear and even Recruiters I bet. (Since it's a counter-trap, it can be activated during damage step. I also bet it can negate face-down special summoning like Apprentice Magician) But you cannot activate this against CotH, Premature etc. on S/T special summon effects?! WHY? That's usually the most common way of special summoning! (From wat it sounds like, this also means no to Last Will, Inferno Reckless Summon, The Shallow Grave, etc.)

 

[squid]

If Im interpreting it correctly, its because effects like Premature Burial are outside effects that Special Summon the monster during resolution. Horn of Heaven (and Black Horn of Heaven) would need to respond to the activation of an effect that directly special summons.

Im curious if this means that effects like Hydrogeddon and Apprentice Magician will not be negated, since it is the effect of another card which is summoning the new monster? My own thinking here, without really knowing better, would be no, it would not negate those monsters. Hopefully someone who has been more current on these things can help clear that up though.

Perhaps your question might be answered by the following ruling:

[Re: Royal Oppression] There are basically 2 ways to Special Summon a monster. The first way is with a Spell Card like "Monster Reborn", a Trap Card like "Call of the Haunted", or an Effect Monster like "Magical Scientist". The second way is built in to the monster, and Special Summons it without activating an effect, such as "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning" or "Dark Necrofear". "Royal Oppression" can negate both of these types of Special Summon. In the first case, you chain the activation of "Royal Oppression"'s effect to the activation of the Spell, Trap, or Monster Card's effect, and negate the effect. In the second case, right before the monster is Special Summoned, you can activate the effect of "Royal Oppression" to negate the Special Summon (the same procedure that you use for "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment").

That can be found further down on Horn of Heaven as well as Solemn Judgment and Royal Oppression.

 

[Kyhotae]

All of the same restrictions that apply to "Horn of Heaven" apply to "Black Horn of Heaven". If any effect Special Summons the monster in question, "Black Horn of Heaven" cannot negate the Summon. This includes monster effect that Special Summon like "Apprentice Magician". "Black Horn of Heaven" would have to negate the effect of the card to stop the Special Summon and it has no way of doing that. That and you can't activate an effect during the resolution of another effect, so it's too late to negate the Summon because it is Successful during the resolution of an effect.

Hope this helps!

 

[Jathro]

It's a shame, isn't it? I admit, I drooled with anticipation of adding this to a Counter Fairy deck when I first saw the text. But then I realized, oh wait... nevermind.

 

[Digital Jedi]

That would only make sense. It's mechanically identical to Horn of Heaven, so the rules should be the same.

 

[Dillie-O]

The Horn/Dark horn rulings were "reversed" way back when due to a little nuance. The nuance is that at activation, it is not guaranteed that a monster will be summoned. Your opponent could have chained Seven Tools of the Bandit so it wasn't logical to negate an effect that didn't actually happen.

For this reason, you couldn't use Horn of Heaven/Dark Horn against Premie/Call. This is the same logic that says you can't use Barell Behind the Door against a card like Graverobber, which doesn't immediately inflict damage, nor is it guaranteed that damage would be inflicted.

EDIT: I should have read a little closer. Its late, the answer was already explained. Sorry for the troll. 8^D

 

[drzero7]

WTF, so you cannot even stop Recruiters, Apprentice, Hydrogeddon with Black Horn of Heaven?!

Man, that means the only "real" use of this card is just Cyber Dragon and Treeborn Frog...

... I'll go back to Forced Back.

 

[masterwoo0]

Whats the fuss? When I saw it, I automatically figured it was the same as Horn of Heaven, and basically it was, with the exception that it only works on Special Summons.

So, it is not a "Royal Oppression". Sometimes, you dont get what you want for free, and if it was, everyone would complain how "Broken" it was, and how it should be Banned, etc, etc... Now, you can just complain about how it "should have been" a better effect.

What do we want guys? Cards that are broken with no cost so we can tell Konami to ban it and make something different, or what??

 

[Kyhotae]

WTF, so you cannot even stop Recruiters, Apprentice, Hydrogeddon with Black Horn of Heaven?!

Man, that means the only "real" use of this card is just Cyber Dragon and Treeborn Frog...

... I'll go back to Forced Back.

You cannot stop "Treeborn Frog" with "Black Horn of Heaven". It would have to negate the effect of "Treeborn Frog" and it has no way to do that.

 

[Fury]

It can only be used against Special Summons from a player's hand.

IMO it was created to be a viable counter to 3x Chaos Sorcerer and to a lesser extent 3x Cyber Dragon. But since CS is banned and Cyber Dragon can be stoppen by BTH as well there is no real reason to run it now. Maybe they will unban Sorcerer then it could be good.

It stops BLS and CED as well so they could just unban the whole team, j/k

 

[Raijinili]

Red-Eyes Black Metal Dragon?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

There you go...and that from the deck, not hand. The "logic" I don't get is the practical difference between, say what pre does and what Chaos Sorcerer does. I mean, if the issue is the fact that pre- Special Summons the monster at resolution, so BHoH and HoH cannot negate it, well, so does Chaos Sorcerer, after the resolution of it's own effect (the activation being, of course, when you pay the cost). If Treeborn cannot be stopped because on e would need to negate it from the GY when it activates its effect, again, same with Chaos.

I understand that it is so, but the rational is, to me, suspect.

 

[Digital Jedi]

That's because it isn't the most accuarte way to phrase it. It only responds to built-in Special Summoning effects. Not all built-in SS effects are from the hand.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

There you go...and that from the deck, not hand. The "logic" I don't get is the practical difference between, say what pre does and what Chaos Sorcerer does.

The difference is that Premature Burial, Treeborn Frog, etc create chain links.

Chaos Sorcerer, and other built-in summons don't.


If it uses the chain you can't use Black Horn of Heaven to negate the summon.
If it doesn't use the chain Black Horn of Heaven can be used as long as the timing is correct. (i.e. sometimes you won't be able to use it against Voltanis the Adjudicator)

 

[Kyhotae]

I mean, if the issue is the fact that pre- Special Summons the monster at resolution, so BHoH and HoH cannot negate it, well, so does Chaos Sorcerer, after the resolution of it's own effect (the activation being, of course, when you pay the cost). If Treeborn cannot be stopped because on e would need to negate it from the GY when it activates its effect, again, same with Chaos.

I understand that it is so, but the rational is, to me, suspect.

You realize that you are not Summoning "Chaos Sorcerer" by activating his effect, right? Removing a LIGHT and a DARK from your Graveyard is his Special Summon condition (from the hand), not his effect. His effect is to remove one face-up monster on the field in exchange for his ability to attack that turn.