watching my oponents graveyard

[DarkSpider]

greetings to all.

i have a question.
on the last event i visit some people said that, while i play painfull choice, i can´t look into my opponents graveyard. as reason for this they said, you cant do an action while other cards effect still resolve (the same reason why you cant remove a peten discarded for tribes effect)

but the rule book said that you always are allowed to look into the graveyard of your opponent (first ask than look ). So in my oppinion it isn't an action to look into the graveyard, at my own hand, or count the cards in the opponents hand.

what is correct in this point?

greetings Spidy

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

I always make my players look before they act. I believe that once you have Activated a card effect, you may not interrupt it, unless it is by another card being chained. PC is no exception:

Select 5 cards from your Deck and show them to your opponent. Your opponent must select 1 card that will be added to your hand. Discard the remaining cards to the Graveyard.

Where on here does it say your allowed to stop in the selection process, look thru your/opponents Graveyard? Every action, in the game, must be completed before moving onto the next. You Activated PC, you need to resolve it before moving on and start searching Graveyards. Your interrupting the flow of the game, because your memory failed you. This is JMO, but I enforce it at my events. I feel it is just proper game play.

I'm out!!

 

[the.wise.duelist]

I dont really like the "cant do anything in the process of resolving an effect" ruling becuase it could decide the game if your opponent has anything in there graveyard that could effect what you decide but vipers the judge and he does inforce the ruling...I go to his tournaments.

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

There is nothing stopping you from looking before you Activate. And if you can't remember, well, that's your fault. You should be able to remember whats in there less that a minute ago. You know that..it's how I run the show. Get you at the top of your game.


I'm out!!

 

[masterwoo0]

Since there are very few effects that will not allow you to simply view the contents of an opponents Graveyard, "Question" being the only one I can think of off-hand, this should not be interpreted as a rule, but a Judgement Call by whomever is the Tournament Judge. 

I dont see why you cannot look into an opponents Graveyard in order to "fine tune" your card selection from the effect of Painful Choice.  It doesnt disrupt the game and there is no determinable affect to the opponent if you were to change the card from your Deck you picked out.  This is YOUR card effect, not your opponents. 

The text says, "Pick 5 cards" and show your opponent.  It doesnt say you can't change your mind if you dont like one of the cards you picked before you show opponent.

 

[DarkSpider]

hi
thx for the answers.

my question is not only for painfull. it is only an example. there are a lot of other cards where people can say "no you can´t look into my graveyard because you would interrupt the resolution of your card"..... forcefull sentry, confiscation, cyber jar..... and more.

the big question is:
is looking into a graveyard an action of the game or not?

is it an action, so you can´t look into the graveyard while playing any card. is it not an action, so you can always look into the graveyard.
that depends not on the card that is played (except question )

i hope you understand what i mean, and my English is OK!

Greetings from Germany
Spidy

 

[Cha]

Looking into a Graveyard is like looking at the cards on the field, or saying that you've eaten some cereal for breakfast.
It isn't an action like attacking, activating an effect etc.

You may always look into a Graveyard, except otherwise stated on a card (like when playing "Question").

 

[Dlanaan]

The thing to keep in mind with this is that the Graveyard is always public knowlege (except when Question is on the chain). Other things that are public knowledge include the number of cards in either player's hand, the number of cards left in a player's deck, the names and effects of cards that are face-up on the field, and face-up cards that are removed from the game. At ANY point (excepting with Question for the Graveyard), a player may look or ask about the areas of public knowledge. The only times when a judge should interfere is if the question of these areas of public knowledge is consistently being asked as the player may be stalling. Beyond that, however, it is perfectly within the rules of the game.

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

Prime example why I enforce look before you activate. I can't count how many times I've had someone activate PC, then start to look.....stop.....take opps graveyard and skim thru it.......look thru deck somemore....stop.....check thier graveyard........look thru deck somemore......stop.......look at their hand......look thru deck...stop......look at all f/d S/T......look thru deck.....stop......look thru opps graveyard.........GET THE PICTURE???

You have people out there that will abuse it......so, I enforce the LOOK before you ACTIVATE at my tournies to stop this problem. Now, before you think I am a hard ass, I am the only JUDGE for 40 players.

Nope, store won't hire another JUDGE.....so, I enforce this rule, and everyone is on the same sheet as me. I don't have to try and run all the seats double checking for someone doing this, players will automatically notify me of the problem and I will correct the player straight away. I won't miss it that way.

But I do know that it is public knowledge. I am just saving in problems that may arise, and for those who are sly, and try to palm cards. Ever have that happen? I have a couple of times. I feel the way I run it is the best.....but hey.......Everyone has their style/opinions, and we won't all agree with them.


I'm out!!

 

[Dlanaan]

I can understand your reasons, but you are enforcing a rule that does not exist in this system. What the player was doing is perfectly legal (referring to the first part, not the palming cards, etc. issue). Sometimes players have bad memories and/or they are trying to make a decision that will make or break their game. It is their right to know what they have available to them and to be able to make a choice based on that information. Also, since the contents of the deck are not public knowledge, at times it is necessary to evaluate what you have in your deck (which is now visible via Painful Choice) to decide what would best fit the situation. Now some players can memorize their 40 card decks and should have a general idea of what is left in them, but not everyone is so gifted with that ability.

Now, yes, staffing can be an issue and it does suck that you can't get another judge. I would suggest seeing if someone is willing to forgo playing and volunteer to judge for a tournament or so if things are becoming that much of a hassle. I realize that some players may be sneaky and it is unfortunate that you have to be extra tight because of the few who might take advantage of it. And as you are the head judge, you do have the right to enforce the rule that way.

However, in a more general situation, public knowledge may be accessed at any time. Your previous posts were toned in such a fashion to indicate that players must always look before they activate which is not the case.

EDITL Removed text.

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

Not to argue or cause a problem, but my post were not toned any certain way. And, not once, did I say you had to do it this way. I said, "I enforce it with my players", and  gave my opinion about it.

Examples:

I believe that once you have Activated a card effect, you may not interrupt it, unless it is by another card being chained. OR

This is JMO(Just My Opinion)*, but I enforce it at my events. I feel it is just proper game play.  OR


Everyone has their style/opinions, and we won't all agree with them.

The one post was just a comment on what the person said.

I understand everybodies point of view. Thats the point of the forum. To discuss and better ourselves as JUDGES.


I'm out!!

*  expanded for understanding

 

[masterwoo0]

There is nothing stopping you from looking before you Activate. And if you can't remember, well, that's your fault. You should be able to remember whats in there less that a minute ago. You know that..it's how I run the show. Get you at the top of your game.


I'm out!!

If this is not setting a tone... Things happen pretty fast when you're playing and it has even been ruled on the Judges site that you can write things down during a duel to help you remember, so that may give you an idea that there is problems with committing not only your cards to memory, but also your opponents.

This should not be a way to sharpen players game. Remember that there are players of ALL ages playing this game. There are 7 year olds who can probably recite to you all the different episodes of Yugioh, but cant remember every single card that they have in their deck without looking.

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

Since when?? Last time I knew, your was only allowed to take notes on damages, not write down the whole Graveyard/ or what has been played. Please Clarify your note taking.......as I consider that to be notes also.....in the long run, it could be construed as cheating, I BELIEVE.

Oh, and if you read the whole post before that one, I was answering my player.


I'm out!!

 

[Dlanaan]

Note writing is currently at head judge's discretion according to UDE policy (as stated by Alex Charsky). It is discouraged in most higher level events beyond simply writing down life totals(Regionals, etc.). Issues such as memory may be tested, but the only limitations will be those cards the opponent has revealed and then hidden (turned f/d, returned to hand or deck, etc.) This is actually more important in regards to the areas of public knowledge as since players are not generally allowed to write down what was played, they need to be able to look at what they can readily know and potentially deduce other circumstances as a result of that.

Unfortunately, the policy document is horribly out of date for Yu-Gi-Oh!, however, I will point out section A-13.

A-13 Shuffling Graveyard
A player is not allowed to shuffle or alter the order of his or her graveyard in any
way. A player's graveyard is public information except in specific cases when a card
effect, such as Question, prohibits a player from viewing his or her opponent's
graveyard.

As I stated before, public information is always accessible, even between (or during) the resolution of the effect unless some effect specifically prohibits it (Question being the only one currently available). This is UDE policy (albeit outdated policy).

You do have the right to run tournaments however you see fit. With the large population there, it is reasonable to enforce some stricter rules in some areas. However, it is important for your players to understand that at higher leveled events it is extremely likely that their opponents will look through both Graveyards and any other area that is public knowledge (or private knowledge limited to that player such as F/D cards he or she controls) and that that is not an offense. They should expect this situation or they may become disappointed when the judge at the Regional tells them that what the opponent is doing is indeed legal.

 

[DarkSpider]

big thx for every answer! thats good to know.

@viper
i understand your point and it seems to be OK in your area. as long as the judges on main events know that i always can look into the graveyard, its all OK for me.

thx and greetings from Germany
Spidy

 

[xxxVIPERxxx]

Oh yeah! My guys know that the Gy and everything is public knowledge. I try to teach them to eventually make it a habit to check everyturn, during the Standby Phase, if nothing has been played. And, as I have stated, I am trying to get them to use their memories/minds more. I allow them to look at anytime except when they have activated PC, Graceful, Forcefull, and other cards. Like I have stated before, which I won't repeat as alot took it wrong.

I also do it to help stop them from setting a bad habit. What if your only looking into the Gy when your wanting to make a big play and not any other time? This way, you keep the opponent off guard.......Metagame......


I'm out!!

 

[masterwoo0]

That's also part of the bluff that just may save you from an attack or make them waste a Spell or Trap Card on your Decoy face-down card before you actually play Premature Burial from your hand.

I understand your reasoning for not allowing it; I try to keep players from making sloppy plays that could confuse their opponent as much as possible, but Yugioh is all about the game within a game, and if not for the subtle bluffs players pull off when they are up against the wall, you take away an opportunity that they may have had to survive another turn.