Abuse of Priority?

[Dillie-O]

Okay, I know...first thought is another ugh, priority question again. But something was gnawing on me as I was having an IM with chaosruler and I needed some extra feedback.

As we know it, priority is the right of the turn player to set events into motion. As the classic example goes, a player can summon Tribe Infecting Virus and use their priority to activate its effect before the opponent can Torrential Tribute it or what have you.

This also applies to starting spell/trap cards. When I start my Main Phase 1, I have the right to activate my spell/trap card first and then my opponent can chain to this. If I choose not to immediately, then my opponent can activate their trap card if they desire.

As we also know it, your priority applies to effects of other monsters on yours side of the field. There was a recent post regarding use use of a previously summoned Cannon Soldier to tribute a newly summoned monster before the opponent can trap it down.

So the meat of my issue boils down to this. From what I'm following, I could summon my Fusiler, and then use my priority to play Metamorphosis and use Fusiler right away to special summon the proper fusion monster. At this point, the opponent hasn't really had any chance to respond (chain or otherwise) to the summoning of Fusiler.

Does that seem to open the door of abuse to you? Something just seems to rub me slightly off about this and I was curious for your feedback. I could be missing some mechanics here which is why it seems odd, but the potential for some additional abuse could be huge off of thing.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

So the meat of my issue boils down to this. From what I'm following, I could summon my Fusiler, and then use my priority to play Metamorphosis and use Fusiler right away to special summon the proper fusion monster. At this point, the opponent hasn't really had any chance to respond (chain or otherwise) to the summoning of Fusiler.

You may not activate a spell speed 1 spell card in response to a summon. So, no it doesn't open the abuse: there's a limit on the actions you can use priority for, to know exactly waht you can or can't do hasn't been released yet.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Well, do I really need to respond to the summon of Fusiler when I can chain the activation metamophisis?

 

[Dillie-O]

Gotcha, I was hoping there was something there that I couldn't do to help that out.

As for chaining to Metamorphosis, let's say I'm one piece shy of Exodia and I use that Metamorphosis on my summoned Emissary of the Afterlife. Granted there are still a couple holes, but that would open the door for a quick win.

 

[Digital Jedi]

When you summoned Emissary and I ask "are you going to use your priority?" You would have to activate a Spell Speed 2 or faster. If you want to activate metamorphisis you have to wit till I get to respond to the summon. Then I activate Bottomless Trap Hole and you hit me in the head with a rock.

 

[Dillie-O]

hehe... <puts images of rocks flying out of his mind />

That spell speed 2 part was the part I was unaware of. That makes a lot more sense now when you look at it that way.

Thanks folks, you rock, as always....oops bad pun 8^D

 

[chaosruler]

When you summoned Emissary and I ask "are you going to use your priority?" You would have to activate a Spell Speed 2 or faster. If you want to activate metamorphisis you have to wit till I get to respond to the summon. Then I activate Bottomless Trap Hole and you hit me in the head with a rock.

If this were true, you couldn't activate Spell Speed 1 monster effects. T_T You can activate Spell Speed 1 or 2 monster effects, and all Spell Speed 2 cards, exceptions to timing issues.

-chaosruler

 

[Digital Jedi]

Yeah, I was thinking in term of Spell Cards. But, of course, I forgot some monster effects are indeed Spell Speed 1. I should have said Spell Speed 1 Spell Cards.

 

[densetsu_x]

Also, you cannot use priority to summon a new monster. Example: You have Magician of Faith and Kycoo the Ghost Destroyer on your side of the field. Your opponent has 4 Sheep Tokens (from Scapegoat) and Spirit Reaper. You decide to special summon The Fiend Megacyber. You can't claim priority to tribute all 3 and summon Gilford the Lightning before your opponent has the chance to respond to the summoning of The Fiend Megacyber. Assuming a chain wasn't automatically triggered (thus taking away priority), the current thinking is that Ignition Effects and Spell Speed 2 and 3 effects are the only things that can be activated with the turn player's priority (let the flaming begin over that statement again).

 

[ancient_duelist]

. . .the current thinking is that Ignition Effects and Spell Speed 2 and 3 effects are the only things that can be activated with the turn player's priority (let the flaming begin over that statement again).

I'm not going to flame anyone over this, but I will say once again that I disagree with the current thinking. The only thing(s) we *know* can be activated by the turn player using their priority following a summon are monster effects that are face-up on the field, from either the just-summoned monster or another such as Canon Soldier that is already on the field.

My personal opinion (and don't bother telling me because I know what it is worth) is that it makes no sense to say the turn player retains the option of activating Spell Speed 2 or 3 Spell or Trap effects before the opponent can respond to the summon. Most monster effects are Spell Speed 1. Why then, under the "current thinking", does the turn player not have the option to activate other Spell Speed 1 effects following a summon? I don't understand the limitation on the effect being Spell Speed 2 or 3 if the turn player retains the priority to "set events into motion". Doesn't a Spell Speed 1 effect set things in motion?

In any case, I believe summoning a monster sets things in motion as well. I agree with the notion that the turn player can activate the effect of a just-summoned monster before the opponent can respond because that is exactly how an activated Spell or Trap effect works also. I disagree with the ruling that the turn player can activate other face-up effects following a summon before the opponent can respond to the summon and I hope that ruling is changed. I simply do not understand the "current thinking" regarding activating Spell Speed 2 or 3 effects before the opponent is given the chance to respond to the summon.

 

[densetsu_x]

Well, Spell Speed 3 effects can be activated anytime as long as the timing is correct. So there's no restriction upon that.

As for Spell Speed 2 effects: I summon a monster, then with my priority activate "Torrential Tribute" (a Spell Speed 2 effect). Or say it was Strike Ninja I just summoned. I use priority to activate his effect (Multi-Trigger, again, speed 2). Similar to the Spell Speed 3 effects, they can be activated almost anytime (the Damage Step being the exception for most).

As for why you can't activate a normal Spell Card (Spell Speed 1) with Priority? There really hasn't been an "official" explanation as to why you can't. I can give several theories but they just try to work within the current framework of what you can/can't do which would eventually lead back to "because that's what they said".

 

[ancient_duelist]

Well, Spell Speed 3 effects can be activated anytime as long as the timing is correct. So there's no restriction upon that.

The question is, is the timing correct for you to activate one following your summon of a monster (not that I can think of any that would be correct, but if there were) before your opponent can respond to the summon.

As for Spell Speed 2 effects: I summon a monster, then with my priority activate "Torrential Tribute" (a Spell Speed 2 effect).

And I will say again that I have seen nothing official that says you can do this before your opponent has a chance to respond to the summon.

I realize I am in the minority on this issue, but I really don't understand the thinking on this at all.

 

[densetsu_x]

Take the ruling for the card "Pineapple Blast" (Normal Trap Card)

"¢ If you Summon a monster and want to activate "Pineapple Blast", and your opponent wants to use "Trap Hole", "Pineapple Blast" is Step 1 of the chain and "Trap Hole" is Step 2.

That pretty much says that you have the right to activate the card before your opponent does.

As for your other point... I would retain Priority to activate Solemn Judgment against my own summon if I wished (say in a Last Turn deck where I want to lose my life points or a Reversal Quiz themed deck for the same reason).

 

[Digital Jedi]

I look at it this way:

Being that most effect monsters are not multi-trigger this would be special dispensation given to them to actvate thiere effects in responce to thier own summon. Otherwise most of time, we'd never get the effects of out newly summoned monster. A Normal Spell Card on the other hand would be an inapropriate responce to a summon

 

[Raijinili]

The question is, is the timing correct for you to activate one following your summon of a monster (not that I can think of any that would be correct, but if there were) before your opponent can respond to the summon.

And I will say again that I have seen nothing official that says you can do this before your opponent has a chance to respond to the summon.

I realize I am in the minority on this issue, but I really don't understand the thinking on this at all.

It's because a summon response chain is still a response chain, and response chains give Priority to the Turn Player. It's the same with, say, an attack declaration. The Turn Player always has priority until either he uses it or passes it. Summoning is not an action that uses up chain priority, and non-response Turn priority isn't something that is used up (i.e. it can be used, but the opponent doesn't get regular priority until the Turn Player wants to end the turn).

Oh, a point of interest: Is there a ruling that says you can't use a card effect already on the field such as Mass Driver?

 

[Digital Jedi]

It sounds like you should be able to. But I think its still one of those grey areas.

 

[FelixChCh]

As for Spell Speed 2 effects: I summon a monster, then with my priority activate "Torrential Tribute" (a Spell Speed 2 effect).

Ok, so if you use your priority for Torrential Tribute, pass priority to me and I activate Solemn Judgement, does Torrential fizzle? Or can I jump in with SJ before you activate TT? How would this play out?

Is the Pineapple Blast example because the conditions for activation of both PB and Trap Hole are simultaneously met, so turn player goes in as chain link 1? I'm not sure this can be used as a case for being able to activate all spell speed 2 S/T cards.

Can somone do a chart showing the steps of what can be activated (similar to Chaosrulers battle steps)?

Like:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
[] - examples
: - separate actor and action
{} - things that just happen [flip effects, field effects]
<> - things that can happen [Spell speed 2 monster effects etc]
TP - turn player
OPP - opponent
TP->OPP priority passed
OPP->TP priority passed
Order indicates priority

TP : Summon/Flip Summon/Special Summon

<TP: Spell speed 3 [Solemn Judgment]>
<OPP: Spell speed 3 [Solemn Judgment]>

Monster Successfully Summoned

{field effects applied [Milus Radiant Earth boost, Field Spell Cards, Continuous Spell]}

{At this point Pole Position would potentially explode}

TP has Priority, and one of the following three can happen:

1. <Mandatory monster effects activate [Breaker effect 1]>

TP->OPP​

<OPP: Chain Spell Speed 2/3 effects/S/T cards [Trap Hole, Divine Wrath]>​

OPP->TP​

<Continue chain to resolution>​

2.<TP: Activate Multi trigger effects/Ignition effects>

TP->OPP​

<OPP: Chain Spell Speed 2/3 effects/S/T cards [Trap Hole, Divine Wrath]>​

OPP->TP​

<Continue chain to resolution>​

3.<TP: Activate Pineapple Blast here?>

TP->OPP, Opponent has priority
<OPP: Activate Spell Speed 2/3 effects/S/T cards [Trap Hole, Magical Marionette]>

OPP->TP​

<TP: Chain Spell Speed 2/3 effects/S/T cards>​

TP->OPP​

<Continue chain to resolution>​

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hm. Looks like I've had a crack at it. Now can someone improve it, and show how/where priority and spell speed 2 S/T fit into the picture? Also comment on the order of execution.

 

[chaosruler]

Counter-Traps "supercede" priority. I know that's a dangerous way of saying it, but since counter traps can "undo" summons, they get first crack at the summon.

-chaosruler

 

[FelixChCh]

Counter-Traps "supercede" priority. I know that's a dangerous way of saying it, but since counter traps can "undo" summons, they get first crack at the summon.

-chaosruler

Following on from D_X's example of activating SJ himself when he summons a monster, I have placed the Turn Player with 'priority' before the Opponent activating the same Spell Speed 3 card. A wacky scenario, but ...

 

[densetsu_x]

1 thing to clarify a little.

Torrential Tribute can only be activated once a summon is successful. So if you wanted to activate Solemn Judgment to negate the summon you would have that option first. If you pass, then the summon is considered successful and you open up the timing for cards like TT, BTH, Trap Hole, etc.

So back to your scenario. If I summoned and just then claimed Priority and flipped Torrential Tribute, you can say that I didn't give you a chance to negate the summon in which case TT would go back face down and you activate Solemn Judgment and the monster would then be destroyed and sent to the graveyard.