Abuse of Priority?

[Dillie-O]

Okay, I know...first thought is another ugh, priority question again. But something was gnawing on me as I was having an IM with chaosruler and I needed some extra feedback.

As we know it, priority is the right of the turn player to set events into motion. As the classic example goes, a player can summon Tribe Infecting Virus and use their priority to activate its effect before the opponent can Torrential Tribute it or what have you.

This also applies to starting spell/trap cards. When I start my Main Phase 1, I have the right to activate my spell/trap card first and then my opponent can chain to this. If I choose not to immediately, then my opponent can activate their trap card if they desire.

As we also know it, your priority applies to effects of other monsters on yours side of the field. There was a recent post regarding use use of a previously summoned Cannon Soldier to tribute a newly summoned monster before the opponent can trap it down.

So the meat of my issue boils down to this. From what I'm following, I could summon my Fusiler, and then use my priority to play Metamorphosis and use Fusiler right away to special summon the proper fusion monster. At this point, the opponent hasn't really had any chance to respond (chain or otherwise) to the summoning of Fusiler.

Does that seem to open the door of abuse to you? Something just seems to rub me slightly off about this and I was curious for your feedback. I could be missing some mechanics here which is why it seems odd, but the potential for some additional abuse could be huge off of thing.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Is the Pineapple Blast example because the conditions for activation of both PB and Trap Hole are simultaneously met, so turn player goes in as chain link 1? I'm not sure this can be used as a case for being able to activate all spell speed 2 S/T cards.

I have made exactly this same argument and I do not believe the Pinapple Blast ruling can or should be extrapolated the way it is being done here. It just seem ridiculous to me to say the turn player has priority to respond to his/her own action. The other player should always have first option of responding to an action of his/her opponent. It seems to me that this "current thinking" is based on the fact that a summon has no Spell Speed and is not chainable. Personally, I do not see what this has to do with who should have priority to respond to the summon. I just do not see how anyone can argue that the turn player should have that priority. But that's just me. <shrug>.

 

[densetsu_x]

Priority is nothing more than the right to go first in the chain. If I have Priority to activate the effect of a monster on the field, I have the same Priority to respond to my summon first. By mechanics, if I had it before the summon, I still have it after the summon.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Take the ruling for the card "Pineapple Blast" (Normal Trap Card)

"¢ If you Summon a monster and want to activate "Pineapple Blast", and your opponent wants to use "Trap Hole", "Pineapple Blast" is Step 1 of the chain and "Trap Hole" is Step 2.

That pretty much says that you have the right to activate the card before your opponent does.

It says you have the right to activate Pineapple Blast as step 1 in the chain. It does not say you have the right to do this because you have the right to activate any Spell Speed 2 or 3 effect as step 1 in the chain. I think that is too big a leap.

As for your other point... I would retain Priority to activate Solemn Judgment against my own summon if I wished (say in a Last Turn deck where I want to lose my life points or a Reversal Quiz themed deck for the same reason).

I am really not trying to be confrontational on this, but who says you would retain Priority to do this? I have not seen this issue addressed in any official source. As far as I know, this is all conjectural at this point.

 

[ancient_duelist]

Priority is nothing more than the right to go first in the chain. If I have Priority to activate the effect of a monster on the field, I have the same Priority to respond to my summon first. By mechanics, if I had it before the summon, I still have it after the summon.

Then why don't you have the priority to activate a Spell Speed 1 effect from your hand? You had it before the summon, didn't you?

 

[ancient_duelist]

It's because a summon response chain is still a response chain, and response chains give Priority to the Turn Player.

What is your source for this statement? It seems logical to me that priority in a "response" chain should go to the person "responding" to something. Priority in responding to a summon should not go to the person making the summon, but to that person's opponent. How can it be otherwise?

It's the same with, say, an attack declaration. The Turn Player always has priority until either he uses it or passes it. Summoning is not an action that uses up chain priority,

This has nothing to do with chain priority. Summoning is an action and the opponent should have priority in responding to that action.

 

[densetsu_x]

First off, almost everything on Priority is a conjecture. Until it ever gets formalized here, almost all of these debates will be conjecture.

Now though, let's say I'm the turn player. If I have priority at the time (not talking about after a summon, just in general), I can activate a Speed Spell 2 effect almost anytime (except the Damage Step in some cases). When I summon a monster, I'm not losing that priority hence why I still have the freedom to respond to my summon first.

More conjecture here: I'm also pretty certain that Monster Effects were meant to be considered closer to the Speed 2 (for Ignition/Trigger effects) and Speed 3 (for Multi-Trigger Effects) but were slowed down to Speed 1 and 2 as to not make them very game breaking. But that's would be the difference for why I could activate TIV's effect after being summoned, while I couldn't activate Pot of Greed. That's the only reason why I can think of why you couldn't activate a normal spell card after a summon short of saying "Because Konami Said So" (since that's all they've said on the subject).

But based on the fact that Spell Speed 2 effects usually don't have restrictions in the game as far as their activation (as long as the timing is correct), I'm far more willing to give the credence that they (edit) CAN be activated by the turn player after a summon before the opponent can respond than not.

 

[densetsu_x]

And 1 more thing. The Response chain to the summon is the first chain activated after a summon is successful. But it is still a chain and as Raijinili stated as the turn player, I didn't lose Priority with my summon so I do have the right to go first in that chain. Moreso, if I activate an Ignition effect like TIV or BLS-EotB, that's first on the Response Chain. Yeah you can chain Torrential at that time but you're just adding to the chain. The Battle Declaration analogy wasn't far off since that's the other "speedless" action that can be declared.

 

[ancient_duelist]

First off, almost everything on Priority is a conjecture. Until it ever gets formalized here, almost all of these debates will be conjecture.

I agree, but that may not be clear to everyone.

Now though, let's say I'm the turn player. If I have priority at the time (not talking about after a summon, just in general), I can activate a Speed Spell 2 effect almost anytime (except the Damage Step in some cases). When I summon a monster, I'm not losing that priority hence why I still have the freedom to respond to my summon first.

This is where we disagree. If this were correct, you would be able to activate Spell Speed 1 effects from your hand following a summon. We know from the Judge's List that you can not do that http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2627#2627).
The only thing you retain priority to do following a summon is to activate the effect of the summoned monster or another monster on the field:
(http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2647#2647 and http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=2438#2438). Personally, I disagree with these as well, but at least we have definitive rulings on these. Now, as to retaining priority to respond to an action, I cite the following which indicates to me that the opponent has first right to respond to an action (http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=3127#3127). It seems to me that I am on safer ground extrapolating this ruling to a response following a summon than you are in extrapolating the Pineapple Blast ruling to a response following a summon. Note that in this case the opponent is not chaining to the activation of The Warrior Returning Alive, they are responding to the adding of the card to the hand. It seems analogous to me that the opponent would also have the same right in response to the summoning of a monster. The turn player is given the option of activating a monster effect when a monster is summoned, but that is it. Other than that, the ball goes to the opponent's court. That's my conjecture and I'm sticking to it.

More conjecture here: I'm also pretty certain that Monster Effects were meant to be considered closer to the Speed 2 (for Ignition/Trigger effects) and Speed 3 (for Multi-Trigger Effects) but were slowed down to Speed 1 and 2 as to not make them very game breaking. But that's would be the difference for why I could activate TIV's effect after being summoned, while I couldn't activate Pot of Greed. That's the only reason why I can think of why you couldn't activate a normal spell card after a summon short of saying "Because Konami Said So" (since that's all they've said on the subject).

The way I see it, Monster Effects are given priority for activation upon summoning similar to the way a Spell/Trap effect is activated when the card is placed face-up on the field. The only difference I see is that the activation of the Monster Effect is optional. I still can not understand the ruling that you can activate another Monster Effect after summoning a Monster and I hope that is one that gets changed.

But based on the fact that Spell Speed 2 effects usually don't have restrictions in the game as far as their activation (as long as the timing is correct), I'm far more willing to give the credence that they can't be activated by the turn player after a summon before the opponent can respond than not.

Hey, that's what I said!

 

[ancient_duelist]

And 1 more thing. The Response chain to the summon is the first chain activated after a summon is successful. But it is still a chain and as Raijinili stated as the turn player, I didn't lose Priority with my summon so I do have the right to go first in that chain.

I would still like to see the source for stating the turn player does not lose priority following a summon. The way I see it, the turn player has the option of activating a Monster Effect following a summon, but otherwise the opponent gets first shot at responding. I have not seen anything that indicates otherwise.

Moreso, if I activate an Ignition effect like TIV or BLS-EotB, that's first on the Response Chain. Yeah you can chain Torrential at that time but you're just adding to the chain. The Battle Declaration analogy wasn't far off since that's the other "speedless" action that can be declared.

Summoning a monster is not a declaration, it is an action and, if the summon is successful, it is an action that has completed. The opponent should (and I maintain, does) have first right to respond to completed actions. The right of the turn player to activate Monster Effects upon summoning does not change this.

 

[densetsu_x]

That was a typo

 

[densetsu_x]

Ok, let me turn this around.

Why would the turn player retain priority to activate a monster effect, yet not have it to activate something like Torrential Tribute or Pineapple Blase?

 

[ancient_duelist]

Ok, let me turn this around.

Why would the turn player retain priority to activate a monster effect, yet not have it to activate something like Torrential Tribute or Pineapple Blase?

I don't think they should, but at least I can kind of understand it. Spell/Trap cards are activated by placing them face-up on the field. Summoning a Monster is placing it face-up on the field. The turn player is given the option of activating the Monster's effect when it is summoned. Now, the ruling on activating other face-up Monster Effects I simply do not understand at all. In any case, these are not responses to the summons but can be considered part of the summons. I still think the opponent has first right to respond to the summons.

 

[ancient_duelist]

That was a typo

Shucks, I thought my powers of persausion were wearing you down.

 

[densetsu_x]

And what about a face up card like Mass Driver that is basically an Ignition Variation of the Continuous Spell Card? The effect is similar to Cannon Soldier. Would I not be allowed to use that effect if it were already active?

See, I don't believe activating the effect has anything at all with the summon. The fact that I can activate an effect from something that is already on the field (which I could have done without summoning first) to me would indicate that summoning a monster has absolutely no bearing on what I can or cannot do. If I could have done it without the summon, I can do it with. I know "what about Normal Spell cards"? That's the part of the explanation we all are waiting to hear about. But it doesn't change the mechanics for the other cards since while "you can't activate a normal spell card" with priority was spelled out, no other restrictions were included. So if I couldn't respond first with my Torrential Tribute, wouldn't that have been included as well?

 

[ancient_duelist]

And what about a face up card like Mass Driver that is basically an Ignition Variation of the Continuous Spell Card? The effect is similar to Cannon Soldier. Would I not be allowed to use that effect if it were already active?

I would rule no, but that's just me.

See, I don't believe activating the effect has anything at all with the summon. The fact that I can activate an effect from something that is already on the field (which I could have done without summoning first) to me would indicate that summoning a monster has absolutely no bearing on what I can or cannot do. If I could have done it without the summon, I can do it with. I know "what about Normal Spell cards"? That's the part of the explanation we all are waiting to hear about. But it doesn't change the mechanics for the other cards since while "you can't activate a normal spell card" with priority was spelled out, no other restrictions were included. So if I couldn't respond first with my Torrential Tribute, wouldn't that have been included as well?

Given the way most responses are presented on the Judge List, I don't think the fact that this restriction was not included means it does not exist. I sent in a question regarding the issue of first response to a summon quite a while back, but have not received an answer (and I'm not holding my breath, either). Pending a definitive ruling, I will continue to believe the opponent has first right of response to a summon except for the activation of face-up Monster Effects.

 

[densetsu_x]

And I'll still say based on the fact the turn player is retaining priority after a summon and some of the rulings out there (like Pineapple Blast because there's only 1 way that's going on the chain before Trap Hole), the turn player has a bit more flexibility to do what he wants before the opponent does.

So about the only thing we'll agree upon is to disagree.

And now that this subject has been debated again to about the same conclusion as the last time it's been debated... thread closed.

 

[Dillie-O]

Well, for what its worth, I found this debate QUITE insightful, as I was shown a new side of the mechanics that I haven't been able to grasp before.

The thing that concerned me about this initially is that Summoning a monster is an action that is occuring in the game. I've always been under the impression that what happens in response to the summoning had a few limitations. Sort of like how during the damage step the only cards you can activate are ATK/DEF modifiers or counter traps to those effects.

Apparently there's more than meets the eye 8^D