Armed dragon LV5 vs Wall of Illusion

[countvelaquara]

Scenario:

Player A has Armed Dragon LV5 face-up on the field, Player B has a face-down defence position Wall of Illusion. Player A attacks Wall of Illusion with AD LV5, destroying it, but causing AD LV5 to be returned to his hand. During the end phase of his turn, Player A then sends AD LV5 from his hand to the graveyard to bring out AD LV7.

I can find no reason why this can't be done, (either in the card text or the rulings for it) but my gut instinct says otherwise. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

 

[masterwoo0]

Scenario:

Player A has Armed Dragon LV5 face-up on the field, Player B has a face-down defence position Wall of Illusion. Player A attacks Wall of Illusion with AD LV5, destroying it, but causing AD LV5 to be returned to his hand. During the end phase of his turn, Player A then sends AD LV5 from his hand to the graveyard to bring out AD LV7.

I can find no reason why this can't be done, (either in the card text or the rulings for it) but my gut instinct says otherwise. Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

The reason you can't do it is because he must be Tributed from the Field as part of his Optional Trigger Effect. Once he returned to hand, his effect was reset, and he was never considered to have destroyed a monster in Battle.

 

[kifoghorn]

The reason you can't do it is because he must be Tributed from the Field as part of his Optional Trigger Effect. Once he returned to hand, his effect was reset, and he was never considered to have destroyed a monster in Battle.

Nowhere in the text of Armed Dragon LV5 does it say from the field to the graveyard. It merely says "..., by sending this card to the graveyard, ..."

Plus there is no mention that Armed Dragon LV5 would be reset if it went back to the players hand.

"...If a level monster fulfills its condition to Special Summon the next-highest level (for example, if "Armed Dragon LV5" destroys a monster as a result of battle), and the level monster is then flipped face-down, or removed from play permanently, or sent to the Graveyard and then Special Summoned from the Graveyard, then its condition is reset and it is no longer considered to have met the condition to level up to the next level."

I would put this to the judages list, its iffy

 

[Digital Jedi]

No need to ask the Judges List a question that is covered in the basic rule book. Basic mechanics state that Effect Monsters have no effect off the field. It's the default mechanic of all Effect Monsters. Exceptions to this rule, specifically say so in their text. No monster can utilize a a field effect when returned to the hand, just because the effect doesn't specify it works only on the field. It's presumed it doesn't work in the hand, because the effect doesn't grant it special permission to work anywhere else.

A common mistake in Yu-Gi-Oh! is to presume because the effect doesn't specifically say you can't do something, then that must mean you can do it. But that is not always the case, especially when the basic game rules and general Mechanics are already saying it for you.

Oh, and basic mechanics also state that effects are reset when a monster leaves the field. That's also something a monster needs special permission to do. If the effect text isn't granting it that permission, then it doesn't have it.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Plus there is no mention that Armed Dragon LV5 would be reset if it went back to the players hand.

If I attack with a Beast-type Monster, then use "Beast Soul Swap" to return it to my hand and then the field again, I can attack again with that same Beast. Why? Because it is reset. It is not considered the same Beast that was just on the Field.

Here is an example of a card resetting through being returned with "Beast Soul Swap" http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4361#4361

Possibly also related to conditions on card that were on the filed, but not any more: http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=6432#6432

 

[masterwoo0]

A better example would be Breaker the Magical Warrior, Ultimate Offering, and Wall of Illusion

Breaker gets summoned and uses his effect to destroy Sakuretsu Armor. He then attacks and gets bounced back to hand by Wall of Illusion. The controller uses Ultimate Offering to Normal Summon Breaker back to the field where he once again gains another Spell Counter.

If Breaker's effect did not "reset" when he was returned to hand, he would not have been able to gain another Spell Counter from being summoned a second time from hand.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Actually Woo0, that is not the case. That would only be so if Breaker was only allowed to have one Spell Counter per turn. I can use Breaker's Spell Counter, then take one from Pitch-Black Power Stone to add another one (he can only have one at a time, thoug), so resetting is not the issue with Breaker. Sorry.

 

[countvelaquara]

Mixed responses it would seem!!

All those examples seem to relate to when things are re-summoned, where the effect is reset due to the new summon, rather than the card is in your hand, for example breaker's effect, which is applied when it is summoned.

I can't seem to find anything about monster effects being reset in the rulebook (online english version), other than continuous, can anyone point me in the direction of that? As it stands, if it's classed as a trigger effect, and the trigger event has occured, what's to stop it being resolved?

I am right in thinking that 'send to the graveyard' is a blanket for 'send from the field or your hand to the graveyard'? If not, that might be the answer!

For now i'll stick to the rulings offered by the senior posters, but i still don't see any concrete proof :S

 

[masterwoo0]

Actually Woo0, that is not the case. That would only be so if Breaker was only allowed to have one Spell Counter per turn. I can use Breaker's Spell Counter, then take one from Pitch-Black Power Stone to add another one (he can only have one at a time, thoug), so resetting is not the issue with Breaker. Sorry.

But we're only talking about a monster leaving the field and returning to the field. Not whether a monster can use its effect more than once per turn. Obviously, if Armed Dragon LV5 could only use his effect once per turn, what would happen if you had "two" of them on the field?

Pitch-Black Power Stone is a external effect. Armed Dragon LV5 doesnt have a external effect that allows him to use his effect without him being tributed. Nothing can make Breaker the Magical Warrior re-trigger his effect to add another Spell Counter outside of resummoning him. You can always add a Counter with Apprentice Magician or Pitch-Black Power Stone, but it is not the same as a monster removed and returned. "He" didnt make the Spell Counter, another card did.

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

I think you missed my point, Woo0, but that's okay , to clarify would be getting off topic, so, back to topic.

kingofhorn: Notice that in the first reference I gave (http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=4361#4361). When Behemoth the King of All Animals was Normal Summoned with one Tribute, his attack was only 2000. When Beast Soul Swap takes him, returns him to the hand and re-(Special) Summons him, his effect has been reset, so his attack is now 2700.

Now, one could argue that the restting happened upon Special Summoning, not necessarily in his hand. But if this was the case, what would happen to Monsters that are doomed to destruction or removal from play during the End Phase, if they are Returned to the hand with Compulsory? "I'm sorry, but the text says to return that card to the Graveyard, so get it out of your hand. If card effects do not reset when they return to your hand from the filed... Bazoo, the Soul Eater would retain the power boost in your hand, Giant Orc, having attacked last turn and returned to your hand, this turn would need to be re-summoned in defense mode, because to summon it in Attack mode would be "changing it's Battle Position".... I speak, to some degree, tongue in cheek, but the idea is clear. A whole new can of worms would open up if Cards that are removed from the field to their owner's hands can retain their effects, or the conditions that were placed upon them by effect.

 

[Absird]

Mixed responses it would seem!!

All those examples seem to relate to when things are re-summoned, where the effect is reset due to the new summon, rather than the card is in your hand, for example breaker's effect, which is applied when it is summoned.

I can't seem to find anything about monster effects being reset in the rulebook (online english version), other than continuous, can anyone point me in the direction of that? As it stands, if it's classed as a trigger effect, and the trigger event has occured, what's to stop it being resolved?

I am right in thinking that 'send to the graveyard' is a blanket for 'send from the field or your hand to the graveyard'? If not, that might be the answer!

For now i'll stick to the rulings offered by the senior posters, but i still don't see any concrete proof :S

We are all agreeing that his effect resets, they were just trying to give you an example.

When a monster leaves the field it is considered a different monster. Any monster that can be sent from the or deck clearly says so. As in Herald of the Purple Light or Kuriboh. Or even Ojamagic. Monsters have no effect in the hand or deck unless they say so

 

[kifoghorn]

Some more food for thought

Nowhere in the text of Armed Dragon LV5 does it say from the field to the graveyard. It merely says "..., by sending this card to the graveyard, ..."

SEND TO THE GRAVEYARD

A card can be "sent to the graveyard" in various ways. Destroying a card and sending it to the graveyard, discarding a card from your hand and tributing a monster are all examples.

And here's a similar example (I think :rolleyes)
Allure Queen LV5

"During your Standby Phase, by sending this card to the Graveyard while it's equipped due to its effect, Special Summon 1 "Allure Queen LV7" from your hand or Deck."

"If "Allure Queen LV5" is Special Summoned by the effect of "Allure Queen LV3", and is then temporarily removed from play with "Dimensionhole" or "Interdimensional Matter Transporter", after it returns to the field it can still use its first effect. The fact that it was Special Summoned by "Allure Queen LV3" is not reset."

We are talking about sending a card to the graveyard, we're not re-summoning armed dragon lv5...

 

[masterwoo0]

We are talking about sending a card to the graveyard, we're not re-summoning armed dragon lv5...

None of the examples you mentioned provide for a card to be sent to the Graveyard from hand, and assuredly, none of them are monsters that must have completed their effect while on the field.

As for Allure Queen and Dimensionhole and Interdimensional Matter Transporter, have you noticed that neither effect "summons" the monster back to the field? It just returns them to the field, so of course she hasn't lost out on the fact that she was "Special Summoned" by the lower LV3, because that was the last way she was summoned to the field.

If you want to stretch this further, what's to prevent you from sending that same LV5 from your hand in Game 2 or 3 after it satisfied the requirement in Game 1?

It doesnt say you "can't" do it by the rules, if you want to be technical about it.

 

[countvelaquara]

it doesn't carry over between duels, or even between turns, because its effect activates at the end phase of a turn during which it destroyed a monster as a result of battle, not whenever you like...

 

[masterwoo0]

it doesn't carry over between duels, or even between turns, because its effect activates at the end phase of a turn during which it destroyed a monster as a result of battle, not whenever you like...

And not "however" you like either. I guess you CAN see my point after all.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Mixed responses it would seem!!...For now i'll stick to the rulings offered by the senior posters, but i still don't see any concrete proof :S

Only in an off-topic example. The manner in which Effect Monsters work is time honored. For concrete proof, just refer to the rule book and the Basic and Advance Gameplay section of the FAQ. No Monster Effect applies off the field, unless it's effect specifically says so.

Some more food for thought

Nowhere in the text of Armed Dragon LV5 does it say from the field to the graveyard. It merely says "..., by sending this card to the graveyard, ..."

SEND TO THE GRAVEYARD

A card can be "sent to the graveyard" in various ways. Destroying a card and sending it to the graveyard, discarding a card from your hand and tributing a monster are all examples.

Your confusing a manual action with a forced action. Many effects require you to "send a card to the Graveyard" as a cost for the effect. Thunder Dragon for example is a card that reequire the manual action of sending it to the Graveyard. But Night Assailant can't be sent voluntarily like that. It must be discarded as the result of something else, an effect or action. These are two different things that use the same process. But the difference is in the intent.

Armed Dragon LV5's text is a manual instruction. It's a cost and by default, it has to be paid on the field. Monster Effects 101.

And here's a similar example (I think )
Allure Queen LV5

"During your Standby Phase, by sending this card to the Graveyard while it's equipped due to its effect, Special Summon 1 "Allure Queen LV7" from your hand or Deck."

"If "Allure Queen LV5" is Special Summoned by the effect of "Allure Queen LV3", and is then temporarily removed from play with "Dimensionhole" or "Interdimensional Matter Transporter", after it returns to the field it can still use its first effect. The fact that it was Special Summoned by "Allure Queen LV3" is not reset."

We are talking about sending a card to the graveyard, we're not re-summoning armed dragon lv5...

And Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Dimensionhole are completely different animals. They remove a monster and return it without summoning it. For an effect like Allure Queen, which only references the last time it was summoned, it's not an example of a rule, but an example of unique circumstances.

 

[SoilentG]

And per Digi's last statement, you can't use any of the effects of the monsters while they're out of play via Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Dimensionhole. So you can't use Armed Dragon LV5's effect while he's in your hand.

I've learned this same rule by asking about Master Monk and the people here kindly helped me understand why I couldn't Special Summon him from the Graveyard with Premature Burial while I had Monk Fighter on the field.

Basically, you're overthinking this and need to go back to the basics. I was in my MM scenario above and now understand not to... in most cases.

 

[kifoghorn]

Armed Dragon LV5's text is a manual instruction. It's a cost and by default, it has to be paid on the field. Monster Effects 101.

PAY A COST

Paying a cost means an action like discarding or sending a card to the graveyard from your hand, or paying life points, in order to sumoon a monster or active an effect...

And per Digi's last statement, you can't use any of the effects of the monsters while they're out of play via Interdimensional Matter Transporter and Dimensionhole. So you can't use Armed Dragon LV5's effect while he's in your hand.

Ok! this got me to agree with you all

On another note, if you use Interdimensional Matter Transporter or Dimensionhole on Armed Dragon LV5 does the Allure Queen LV5 rule apply?

 

[densetsu_x]

Short answer (especially with Dimensionhole) is "No". With Dimensionhole's case you no longer are on the same turn. But in both cases, removing the monster from play makes it forget anything else that might have been affecting it for better or worse for that turn (note the difference also that Allure Queen is looking at how she's summoned while with ADLV5 all that cares about is if it destroyed something in battle).