Been thinking about complex chains, Standby Phase, and End Phase lately...

T

Tkwiget

Da Twiggy Man!
Lately I've been thinking of generating some scenarios that have complex chain blocks in the Standby Phase and End Phase.

So far all I've come up with is one interesting complex chain block in the End Phase.

Player A: 2300 Life Points
Player B: 200 Life Points

Player Fields:
Player A has a face up Ectoplasmer and Two-Man Cell Battle with a face up Dark Necrofear and Twin-Headed Behemoth in attack position. Player A has Gemini Elf in hand.

Player B has a face up Cyber Dragon, Treeborn Frog, and Spirit Reaper in defense position with a face down Mirror Force.

Actual Scenario:
Player A attacks Cyber Dragon with Dark Necrofear. Player B responds with Mirror Force. All of Player A's face up attack positioned monsters are destroyed. Player A moves to his End Phase. Dark Necrofear, Twin-Headed Behemoth, and Two-Man Cell Battle activate all at the same time.

Player A decides to make the Chain Link order this.

Link 1: Dark Necrofear
Link 2: Twin-Headed Behemoth
Link 3: Two-Man Cell Battle

Two-Man Cell Battle resolves and Special Summons Gemini Elf. When Dark Necrofear activates and resolves, it targets Spirit Reaper. At this point Spirit Reaper and Ectoplasmer activate at the same time. Player A controls both effects. Player A decides to resolve the chain block in this order.

Link 1: Spirit Reaper
Link 2: Ectoplasmer

Since both effects are continuous, they aren't being chained to one another. Player A is the Turn Player and can decide which effect is placed on the Chain Block first.

Question:
Did I resolve this scenario correctly or am I missing something?
 
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This one is correct! Now, if you study this one, you'll get a better understanding of the double pass thing I was referring to earlier. Both players passed consecutively on steps 4 and 5, with Player B starting with Priority, which is why he was forced to resolve when it came back to him.....make sense?
 
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In this last example, yes. But now that you know what it 'looks' like, you should be able to come up with scenarios that mix and match correctly and you should also be able to recognize when something's not quite right...lol.
 
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Skey, you might want to check out this scenario. I did quite a bit of digging and planning for this one. I'm sure it has some errors in it and this one I tried to keep as simple as possible, yet complex enough in how the scenario is played out. I focused more on making the scenario from a game mechanical point of view rather than a realistic situation of what the average player would do; which is the entire point of this thread.

This scenario as a whole is dealing with multiple effects resolving in the Standby Phase and End Phase in the same turn. Let me know if I resolved the entire scenario correctly. It took me a while to put it all together from how I set it up in my mind to how I typed it out. If the scenario is correctly resolved from the stand point of how priority is passed between players at the Standby Phase and End Phase, then I'll be happy with just that. If there's a card ruling error that I'm not aware of then I'll accept the error as this is one mind blowing read. @_@


Player A has a face down Morphing Jar, Super Rejuvenation, D. Tribe, a face up Karate Man, and Gaia Soul the Combustible Collective and Last Will in hand. Also has a Tyrant Dragon that's removed from play via Dimensionhole that was played last turn, and Different Dimension Capsule on its last Standby Phase. Also currently has 4 dragons in hand. Player A also has a face up Mass Driver on the field.

Player B has a Kiseitai equipped to Karate Man, face up Burning Land, Brain Jacker equipped to Player A's D.D. Survivor. Has a face down Archfiend's Roar with Shadowknight Archfiend in the Graveyard. Has Strike Ninja removed from play via his own effect and has Chaos Command Magician removed from play via Interdimensional Matter Transporter.

Player A is the Turn Player.

Player A draws and then enters his Standby Phase. Player A resolves Different Dimension Capsule and adds the Dragon Monster that he searched for to his hand. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves Kiseitai's effect and gains half of Karate Man's attack points to his Life Points; which happens to be 500. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A. Player A must resolve an effect or activate a card, so Player A decides to resolve Dimensionhole's effect and places Tyrant Dragon back onto the field in the position it was in when it left the field. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves the effect of Burning Land and both players lose 500 Life Points. Priority is auto-passed to Player A. Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B has the only outstanding effect left in the Standby Phase. Player B must resolve Brain Jacker. Player A gains 500 Life Points.

Player A now enters Main Phase 1. Player A activates Last Will. Player A activates Karate Man's effect. Player A Normal Summons Gaia Soul the Combustible Collective to the field. Player A activates his face down D. Tribe. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B chains Archfiend's Roar and targets Shadowknight Archfiend in his Graveyard. Priority auto-passes back to Player A. Player A chains Super Rejuvenation to Archfiend's Roar. Neither player has any additional cards they would like to add to the Chain Block. The Chain Block resolves.

Super Rejuvenation resolves. Archfiend's Roar resolves and Special Summons Shadowknight Archfiend in Attack Position. D. Tribe resolves and changes all of Player A's monsters to Dragon-Type. Player A declares an attack with Tyrant Dragon and selects D.D. Survivor as the attack target. D.D. Survivor is destroyed and Player B loses 1100 Life Points.

Player A enters his Main Phase 2 and Flip Summons his face down Morphing Jar. Both players discard their hands and draw five new cards. Player A had discarded a total of 5 Dragon-type Monster Cards from Morphing Jar's effect. Player A activates Mass Driver and tributes Karate Man, Gaia Soul the Combustible Collective, Tyrant Dragon, and Morphing Jar to the Graveyard and deals 1600 points of Effect Damage to Player B.

Player A enters his End Phase. Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A. Player A must resolve an effect and decides to resolve Last Will's effect. Player A Special Summons Sangan from his Deck via Last Will's effect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves Interdimensional Matter Transporter's effect and places Chaos Command Magician back onto the field in its original position it had before it was removed from play. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A passes Priority to Player B. Player B passes Priority back to Player A. Player A must resolve an effect and decides to resolve Super Rejuvenation's effect. Player A draws a total of nine cards. Five from the five dragons discarded by Morphing Jar and four from Mass Driver tributing Karate Man, Gaia Soul the Combustible Collective, Tyrant Dragon, and Morphing Jar to the Graveyard while D. Tribe's effect is still in affect. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B resolves Strike Ninja's effect and places Strike Ninja back onto the field it originally was in before it was removed from play. Priority auto-passes to Player A. Player A decides to resolve his last outstanding effect and that would be D. Tribe. Player A resolves D. Tribe's effect and all of his monsters return back to their normal monster type. Priority auto-passes to Player B. Player B has the very last outstanding effect and must resolve it. Player B resolves Archfiend's Roar's effect and Shadowknight Archfiend is destroyed via Archfiend's Roar's effect.
 
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Well it's a very nice scenario.

Firstly, i'm not convinced of the "auto-passing" after you resolve an effect, but it's alright because we don't really have a clear picture (and probably never will) and it works. However, assuming that it's correct, i can't see any issues so far and it look fine to me.

Secondly, the only outstanding issue i see is the "resolution" of D. Tribe in the End Phase. That does not occur, as it is not resolved in the same manner as the other effects. It would actually automatically disappear once both players have decided to end the turn, directly prior to the transition. So the only effect left to resolve after Strike Ninja would be Archfiend's Roar.

Generally, conditions that state "at the end of the turn" actually occur directly prior to the trasition of the turns, once the turn has been decided on. This can include, destruction, disappearing to stats or attributes, and ending of effects etc. among many others.

Good work Tkwigit
 
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*cries cause he got something right for once that's so new to him* :crying_je

That scenario took forever to piece together! I spent like two flipping days working it out in my mind and then going to paper..

I'll post up another scenario later...I'm gonna go celebrate!

XD 8^)
 
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Excellent scenario. I have to agree with Nova on both issues he brought up. D. Tribe will mearly end when the turn ends, it isn't a manually chosen thing to resolve. And the Priority passing issue is not one that I have seen anything in writing or even heard mentioned by anyone official previously. My understanding is like I've stated previously, the Turn Player has the ability to pass to Non-Turn Player to see if they would like to resolve one of their effects but if they choose to pass back it is mandatory for the Turn Player to resolve an effect and then after there is the window for the response chain (which would be Non-Turn Player's priority unless the resolved effect was a summon) you go right back to Turn Player optional, Non-Turn Player optional, Turn Player mandatory for each outstanding effect of the Turn Player until there are no more Turn Player effects and only then would it become the Non-Turn Player's turn to choose from their outstanding effects. I suppose I could have just missed the passing of Priority thing somewhere along the line.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this ruling verify that:

Ruling 15.
"Last Turn" as a chain to "Change of Heart": Suppose the turn player activates "Change of Heart" and the opponent chains "Last Turn", then the opponent selects the monster targeted by "Change of Heart" for "Last Turn" (since it's still on his side of the field, as "Change of Heart" hasn't resolved yet). Then "Change of Heart" resolves and the turn player gains control of the monster, then Special Summons for "Last Turn". There is no special Battle Phase. Assuming that the opponent somehow survives the standard Battle Phase, during the End Phase, the turn player has priority to activate and resolve an effect. If the turn player activates and resolves "Change of Heart", then the monster goes back to the opponent and (assuming nothing else has happened), both players each have 1 monster and the result is a DRAW. If the turn player passes priority to the opponent, the opponent can activate and resolve the effect of "Last Turn" before "Change of Heart", and in this case the turn player still has 2 monsters and the opponent has zero, so the turn player would win. If the turn player passed priority to the opponent and the opponent passes it back, the turn player MUST activate and resolve an effect, so the effect of "Change of Heart" would expire and both players would have 1 monster each, resulting in a DRAW.​
 
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That ruling confirms the double-pass I have mentioned a few times in this thread.

The Turn Player has priority to resolve an effect during the End Phase. If they pass, then the Opponent gets to decide. If the opponent passes back, then the Turn Player MUST resolve at least 1 of their outstanding effects.
 
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Thats actually not what i was refering to, that ruling has been around for a while now, so i'm not disputing/questioning that.

It's the auto-passing to between both players after an effect is resolved.

I have always felt that the process always starts with the TP in the Standby/End Phases, even after the TP resolves an effect. It is not like the other Phases/Steps in that respect.

But it's really up in the air, i don't even think Konami really has a proper outline themselves that they could give.

That seems to be a logic borrowed from Dan's recent explaination of Priority passing that he outlined for the Main Phase, which is not really an Official ruling.
 
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novastar said:
Well it's a very nice scenario.

Firstly, i'm not convinced of the "auto-passing" after you resolve an effect, but it's alright because we don't really have a clear picture (and probably never will) and it works. However, assuming that it's correct, i can't see any issues so far and it look fine to me.

Secondly, the only outstanding issue i see is the "resolution" of D. Tribe in the End Phase. That does not occur, as it is not resolved in the same manner as the other effects. It would actually automatically disappear once both players have decided to end the turn, directly prior to the transition. So the only effect left to resolve after Strike Ninja would be Archfiend's Roar.

Generally, conditions that state "at the end of the turn" actually occur directly prior to the trasition of the turns, once the turn has been decided on. This can include, destruction, disappearing to stats or attributes, and ending of effects etc. among many others.

Good work Tkwigit
Click to expand...
Your guess is as good as mine on the auto passing of Priority after a leftover card effect, condition, etc. resolves.

However, I do agree with you on D. Tribe. Mostly because I can't think of anything to disprove your information. Looks a lot like a condition that disappears once the End Phase ends. I'm also taking into consideration the fact that D. Tribe is one ancient card from the PGD days. XD

I'll stick with the whole auto passing of Priority of leftover card effects, conditions, etc. for the time being. I need to have some kind of base of understand with this kind of stuff. <shrugs>

Honestly, I don't think I'll be able to top that scenario of mine. Don't think I won't try! >8^)

:woot_jedi :shudder_j :headbang_
 
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:eek:jama_bla :naughty_j :biggrin_j

I'll see what I can cook up for an scenario involving Pole Position.

Then everyone is gonna like try and kill me after they recover...or well something like that... :eek:rcpoursu
 
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skey23 said:
That ruling confirms the double-pass I have mentioned a few times in this thread.

The Turn Player has priority to resolve an effect during the End Phase. If they pass, then the Opponent gets to decide. If the opponent passes back, then the Turn Player MUST resolve at least 1 of their outstanding effects.
Click to expand...

We all are aware of the ability to pass on the opportunity to resolve and then for non-turn player to pass back and it then becomes mandatory. My clarification is that there isn't a "you resolve an effect, then I resolve an effect" mechanic I have ever seen. The Turn Player resolving an effect does not now mean that the Priority to resolve an effect passes to the Non-Turn Player. The Turn Player could (if the Non-Turn Player does not activate a response chain after the effect being resolved) choose to resolve each one of his effects without "having" to pass Priority to the Non-Turn Player as far as the "effects that need to be resolved" go. That doesn't seem to have ever been addressed as a Priority issue.
 
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My whole basis on the 'auto-pass' stems from the 'opponent of the controller of the last effect to resolve' issue and Priority. Now that one HAS gotten some mention and feedback and is 'supposedly' true in reference to Priority.

So I merely applied it to End Phase/Standby Phase scenarios. And with TKwiget's single card resolutions it was the easiest way to deal with them.
 
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Well until I know that the Turn Player can resolve more than one effect at the Standby/End Phase, then I'll continue to go with what I've been doing because it does make it easier to understand. Even if this isn't how it's suppose to resolve, the fact of the matter is it gives me and possibly others a base level of understanding it until a more concrete piece of information is given to us to chew on.

Btw, I'm working on another scenario even now to post up. =)
 
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