book of moon and spirit reaper

J

jean-denis

New Member
i think i got the right ruling for the interaction of these two cards but i wanna be sure
case 1
player1 (turn player) plays book of moon on spirit reaper : spirit is destroyed
case 2
player 1(turn player) attacks with spirit
player 2 actives book of moon on spirit reaper: spirit is turned face down and is not destroyed

there are other cases but i don't mention them
 
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What differs in both cases?
What's your argument of SR being destroyed in case 1, but not in case 2?

Both seem the same to me...

I think it's like this:
Chain Link 1: BoM, target SR

Resolve:
CL1: Turn SR into face-down DEF position, SR's not destroyed, since it's face-down
OR
CL1: SR is immediatly destroyed before BoM completely resolves
(Since SR is destroyed at resolution of the effect that targets it)

As you can see, I'm not too sure about this one, since I don't surely know at what point of resolution SR gets destroyed...

But I think it's the 1st one, where it survives...
 
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Actually, your case number 1 is incorrect, it is true that Book of Moon targets, but you have to remember part of Spirit Reapers effect is that it is destroyed when the the effect that targetted it has fully resolved.

This meaning that whenever Book of Moon is being targetted to Spirit Reaper, it would normally be destroyed after the card has resolved, but since Book of Moon turns Spirit Reaper f/d, it's effect is no longer active on the field when Book of Moon is finished resolving, so Spirit Reaper would not be destroyed by it.

Here's another example that I hope may help.

Player A: Attacks with Spirit Reaper.
Player B: Activates Magic Cylinder.

Chain: Link 1: Magic Cylinder's activation.
Link 2: Magic Cylinder resolves dealing 300 points of damage to the controller of Spirit Reaper.

Magic Cylinder would not destroy Spirit Reaper as it was activated, but after it's resolution is what I'm saying here, so damage would be taken by the controller of Spirit Reaper and then it would be destroyed immediately after the chain resolved.

Book of Moon turning Reaper f/d in it's revolution means that Spirit Reaper is no longer f/u after the resolution, so it is not destroyed...

I know I'm confusing you... so I'll just leave it with this, lol.  Spirit Reaper is not destroyed until after the targetting effect has fully resolved.
 
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Kinda unclear to whom you're responding... (or should it be "who"in this sentence?)
helpoemer316 said:
Player A: Attacks with Spirit Reaper.
Player B: Activates Magic Cylinder.

Chain: Link 1: Magic Cylinder's activation.
Link 2: Magic Cylinder resolves dealing 300 points of damage to the controller of Spirit Reaper.
Click to expand...
Kind of a weird chain, I think...
 
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Yeah, but it's what happens, Sprit Reaper is never destroyed until after the targetting effect has resolved, after that happens Reaper is destroyed immediately, but with the situation that Book of Moon brings up, it is not destroyed because it's f/u effect is no longer active while it's f/d.
 
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And a little something to add...

Spirit Reaper will not be destroyed if targeted by Different Dimension Gate or Interdimensional Matter Transporter because he will not be face up on the field when the card resolves (upon resolution, he will be removed from play).
 
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The coin flip would still have to be done, but after that, since the effect has resolved and he was targetted, Spirit Reaper would be destroyed by it's own effect. Of course, Reaper must be f/u for this to happen.
 
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Regardless of the coin outcome, the reaper would be destroyed.

However...

Player A announces they will use B Dragon's effect to destroy the reaper.
Player B has a set Book of Moon.

Player B would have to activate the Book of Moon before the coin toss.  They cannot wait until after the toss(es) to see if the will "waste" their book of moon since by the time the coins are tossin' the chain is resolving.

If Player B activates Book of Moon and the coin toss is incorrect, the Reaper would not be destroyed (because he's face down).
 
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in the case of book of moon targeting spirit reaper i think it is a simultaneous effect that's why the turn player is important
if turn player's bom targets spirit
bom is step 1 and spirit is step 2 we resolve first the effect of spirit and it is destroyed
if turn player's spirit is targeted by bom while attacking
spirit is step 1 and bom is step 2 we resolve first the effect of bom and spirit is only turned face down
but i'm not sure bom can resolve first in both case and spirit will never be destroyed, after all spirit is only the target

i have discussed on it a lot of times so.....
 
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Actually, there is no SEGOC here. The effect Spirit reaper triggers after teh successful resolution of a targetting effect upon it. This is why it is destroyed regardless when Barrel/Blowback Dragon targets it with its effect.

With BoM, Upon successful resolution of the card, Spirit Reaper is already facedown on the field and thus its effect does not trigger.
 
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spirit reaper against magic cylinder is very simple
magic cylinder is step 2 spirit is step 1
the controller of spirit takes the dammage in step 2 spirit is destroyed in step 1
i think it is another case of simultaneous effect
book of moon against spirit is more complicated
 
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No SEGOC, remember.

Spirit Reaper's effect will resolve when the chain in which it was targeted ends. This is like when Sangan or Witch of the Black Forest are sent to the graveyard in the middle of the chain. Their effects were triggered but those kind of effects must wait for the chain to end; the effects don't enter in the same chain. So, there would be just one Chain link:

- Spirit Reaper attacks.
- Chain Link 1: Magic Cylinder.
- No answer. Effect of Spirit Reaper is triggered, since the targeting card had not its activation negated.
- Magic Cylinder resolves. 300 damage to the controller of Spirit Reaper.
- Chain ends.
- Face-up Spirit Reaper asks: Has my effect been triggered? Have I been targeted by an effect while face-up?
- Everyone: yes...
- Spirit Reaper:   :-o OH, NO!!!!   BOOOOOOOOM!!!!!

EDIT: I had a mistake. It does not wait for the chain to end. It resolves after the chain link that designated it as a target. Corrections in the next posts.
 
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Spirit Reaper will be destroyed if:

He is face-up on the Field when the card targeting him resolves
If his effect is not being negated (for example, by Skill Drain)
 
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somewan said:
Regardless of the coin outcome, the reaper would be destroyed.

However...

Player A announces they will use B Dragon's effect to destroy the reaper.
Player B has a set Book of Moon.

Player B would have to activate the Book of Moon before the coin toss.  They cannot wait until after the toss(es) to see if the will "waste" their book of moon since by the time the coins are tossin' the chain is resolving.

If Player B activates Book of Moon and the coin toss is incorrect, the Reaper would not be destroyed (because he's face down).
Click to expand...

hello,

i think your example with blowback is incorrect. because the effect of the blowback sais you choose after the coin toss. not before. so you can wait with chaining the book of moon for the result of the coin toss. than, if the result was correct your opponent targets the card, not be for the coin toss, and than you can start a chain with the effect. look at blowbacks effect:
Toss a coin 3 times. If at least 2 of the results are Heads, select 1 card on your opponent's side of the field and destroy it.
first the coin toss 3 times. than if 2 of the results are heads, than you select 1 card on your opponents side. and this is the moment you can chain to. spirit reaper would not be destroyed if 2 of the results are not heads! because than you would not target anythink.

and to spirit reaper vs book of moon:
book is spell speed2. reapers effect is spell speed1. normally an automatic chain would start. but you can not chain a speed1 effect to a speed2 effect. so BoM would resolve first. and than the effect of the spirit reaper would normally activate. but since he is face down, he has no effect.

but on this point i have an other question:
book of moon vs  Ryu Senshi
ryu senshi has the effect:
Also negates the effect of a magic card that specifically designates this card as a target and destroys it.
my question is, why ryu senshi can negate a book of moon that is targeting him? I think his effect is the same spell speed as the effect of a spirit reaper. so normally i would say the same as i said before. The speed1 effect can´t chain to speed2 and so the book of moon would turn the senshi face down. and so his effect would not be able to resolve.
but is that correct? in this point I'm not really sure. plz help :)

Greetings from a German player

Greetings Spidy
 
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somewan said:
Spirit Reaper will be destroyed if:

He is face-up on the Field when the card targeting him resolves
If his effect is not being negated (for example, by Skill Drain)
Click to expand...

Also, IT needs to be face-up during activation.

Now to pick apart a post (no offense to the poster):
i think your example with blowback is incorrect. because the effect of the blowback sais you choose after the coin toss. not before.
Click to expand...

Yes, indeed, it does say that, even in Japan. But it's ruled as a targeting effect (so you choose when you activate the effect), and the coin flips are ruled to happen during resolution, not activation.

so you can wait with chaining the book of moon for the result of the coin toss.
Click to expand...

By the time you're flipping the coins, Blowback Dragon is resolving. You can't chain a card during the resolution of a chain.

than, if the result was correct your opponent targets the card, not be for the coin toss, and than you can start a chain with the effect. look at blowbacks effect:
Toss a coin 3 times. If at least 2 of the results are Heads, select 1 card on your opponent's side of the field and destroy it.
Click to expand...

For some reason, that text is interpreted as saying that it's targeting, and that the flips are during resolution.

first the coin toss 3 times. than if 2 of the results are heads, than you select 1 card on your opponents side. and this is the moment you can chain to. spirit reaper would not be destroyed if 2 of the results are not heads! because than you would not target anythink.
Click to expand...

Stupid confusing text. But that's the ruling.
 
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Raijinili, you may be right. Spirit Reaper should be destroyed between resolution of chain links after the resolution of the Chain Link of the effect that leads it to destruction and the triggering should not be an effect like Sangan, because it doesn't create a new Chain Link, IMO.

Can someone else confirm this? Not because I don't believe it. :wink: Just to be 100% secure and get going with its ruling from now on. Thx. :)


DarkSpider, now that I look at the case between Ryu Senshi and Book of Moon, I would say that Ryu Senshi can negate and destroy Book of Moon because:

"Spell, Trap, and Effect Monster Cards all have different speeds. You can only respond to a card and start a Chain by playing a card of equal or greater speed. The exception to this rule are Spell Speed 1 cards, which CANNOT be used against each other." - from the Rulebook.

So, if Ryu Senshi's effect would be Spell Speed 1, it couldn't be used even against Normal Magic cards that target it. Then, Ryu Senshi's effect is Spell Speed 2. The effect can be used against Book of Moon.
 
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