breaker & ring of destruction...

C

cuzwbd

New Member
this took place in a recent duel....p1 has 2200 lp and has a set m/t & no monsters p2 has 1700 lp and a zaborg in atk pos and 1 set s/t (call of haunted) p1 draws for turn , summons breaker and says "priority to break" then activates set ring of destruction targeting his breaker and tries to hit for 1900 dmg to p2 for game...p2 says wait - does ring hit for 1600 or 1900??? judge says 1600 p1 gets mad and starts to argue .....judge judge says 1600
i get asked by p2 what i think....so i said it depends...i ask p1 when did you acitvate ring? he says "when i summoned breaker"i say " i think you hosed yourself then..."p1 goes berserk....(sigh) i asked if i could explain what i thought happens...p2 says yes p1 is still ranting judge has walked off refusing to be around... so i treid... i said when breaker is summoned he gets his counter - thats all you can use priority for NOT to break... so when you activated ring to respond to your own summon that was what you used your priority for - starting chain... summon(link1) effect to place counter (link2) (opponent gets chance to respond here) no response from p2 so ring is next(link 3) and resolve backwards ring hits for 1600 no counter has been placed yet....i said you should have summoned asked p2 for a response and if none allowed breaker to get his counter then responded to the placing of the counter on breaker with rin of d (and not used any priority to break)
was i close?? p2 & judge think so but p1 refuses to accept ruling or explanation saying no one here has a clue etc etc i tried to say timing is everthing... it determins what order things go on chain & how they resolve...
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Ok, there are a few things wrong here.

1. There is NO Priority involved with "Breaker the Magical Warrior"s effect when he is summoned. His first effect is a Mandatory Trigger that you have NO CONTROL over and will automatically become Link 1 in the Summon Response Chain.

2. Notice I said Link 1 above. This is because the Summon itself does NOT use the chain.

3. It wouldn't matter if you activated "Ring of Destruction" in response to the Summon, or in response to the player activating "Breaker"s 2nd effect (the Ignition Effect). Since removing the Spell Counter is a cost to activate his effect, his ATK will be 1600 no matter what.

4. The only way for P1 to win the duel in the way he wanted, was to do what you described.

Summon "Breaker".
Ask P2 if they wish to respond to the counter being placed.
State they do not with to respond to the counter being placed.
Place the counter.
Activate "Ring of Destruction" w/o using the effect of "Breaker" so his ATK stays at 1900.


Hope this helps!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
To do 1900 with ring player 1 would have summoned breaker, placed the token, and allowed it to resolve. Then as player 1's next action they should have activated ring WITHOUT breaking anything. The token is paid as cost. Virtually the only way to ring breaker at 1900 is to set it up. If the player who controls breaker uses the token at their first chance, then any ring done would do 1600.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
From what I understand after your interpretations is that Breaker gets his counter before P2 can respond; however because of Breaker's effect, doesn't P2 get the opportunity to respond to the summon before breaker's effect resolves? Doesn't this also mean that when P1 summons Breaker, before Ring of Destruction is activated, Breaker is successfully summoned so the counter is placed "as a cost" so the chain is the placement of the counter and not the summoning of breaker (even if P1 said it was the summon); yet no one but the disgruntled duelist believes that Breaker is at 1900 (assuming he didn't "break" anything).
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
When Breaker is summoned, the placement of his counter goes as chain link 1. Then your opponent has a chance to respond. If they were to respond at THIS time with ring, ring would be chain link 2. Chains resolve backwards, so breaker would be destroyed before the counter actually was placed, meaning his attack is 1600.

If there was no response, the counter would be placed on breaker and that chain would end. Now, it is the turn players turn to act. They can either activate an effect or move on to Battle Phase. If they chose to activate ring, then breaker would be with counter, and be blown up at 1900. If they went to use the counter for breakers effect, and then chain ring, it would be at 1600 due to the fact that the counter is a cost for activating the ability and removed immediately, whether breaker resolves with or without effect, or is negated or destroyed.

DJ, you know how hard it was to put counter when my brain says token? I had to backspace like 20 times this reply! I know what the correct terminology of it is, but I just get sloppy when writing or typing my opinion. But thanks for the correction. I need to keep counters separate from tokens when it comes to yugioh.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
upon re reading - i see a thing or 2 was left out - it was a long discussion involving a lot of 'F' bombs on part of p1.... sigh...he insisted using priority to break would force counter to be put on breaker before any response by either player....i knew that wasn't right but may not have conveyed why too clearly...i did know counter was placed automatically so to speak,and that atk increase was also automatic, but i did not think you could use priority to "break" when breaker was summoned since he dosent actually get counter until he's successfully summoned with no response from either player...i guess using priority to get counter was a wrong way to put it(doh)...but was more or less accurate as to the set up & timing to use ring to hit for 1900....(woo hoo!)
this does lead me to wonder how breaker interacts with with new burn decks using chains....exactly how many things go on chain when breaker is summoned???
gets counter? atk increase? use counter to break? response by either player to any of these? another discussion perhaps

and a big thanks as always you all have helped immensely
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
cuzwbd said:
i did know counter was placed automatically so to speak,and that atk increase was also automatic
Click to expand...
The ATK increase happens immediately after the counter is placed, but the counter is not placed immediately after the summon.

cuzwbd said:
this does lead me to wonder how breaker interacts with with new burn decks using chains....exactly how many things go on chain when breaker is summoned???
gets counter? atk increase? use counter to break?
Click to expand...
Breaker has 3 effects.

First, a SS1 Trigger Effect that activates when Breaker is normal summoned. As a Trigger Effect, it can be chained to, and it can also be Chain Link 2 or higher itself. When this effect is resolved, Breaker gets a counter.

Second, a Continuous Effect (without Spell Speed) that increases Breaker's ATK by 300 points for each Spell Counter on it. This effect does not use the Chain.

Third, a SS1 Ignition Effect with the cost of removing the Spell Counter. As an Ignition Effect, it can only be Chain Link 1 of a chain.

So when Breaker is normal summoned, is only "generates" one chain link (the Trigger Effect), not more. If you have Stumbling active, that's 2 already ^^
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
The Advocate said:
From what I understand after your interpretations is that Breaker gets his counter before P2 can respond; however because of Breaker's effect, doesn't P2 get the opportunity to respond to the summon before breaker's effect resolves? Doesn't this also mean that when P1 summons Breaker, before Ring of Destruction is activated, Breaker is successfully summoned so the counter is placed "as a cost" so the chain is the placement of the counter and not the summoning of breaker (even if P1 said it was the summon); yet no one but the disgruntled duelist believes that Breaker is at 1900 (assuming he didn't "break" anything).
Click to expand...
Only the removal of Breaker's Spell Counter is a cost. Not the placement of it. In Yu-Gi, payments are only represented in the same manner as real life, giving something in exchange for something else. The placement of the counter is just an ordinary effect resolution and follows the basic rules of that.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I hate to ask this because I know someone is going to say it's basic but if the other player did not respond to Breaker's Summon, then why did he signal Priority to Breaker?

This thread has been the most helpful to me in understanding the resolutions of chains, now that I have re-read the thread I totally understand why Breaker is at 1600 and totally agree with the ruling but I keep asking myself, why didn't he just wait....
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Because Breaker's effect is a Mandatory Trigger, Priority isn't used or passed. Breakers effect automatically triggers upon summoning, and becomes the first link in the chain we like to refer to as the Summon Response Chain. Since the effect forcibly triggers, your priority is essentially "used up" by that effect. You've created a chain link in response to your summon just by summoning Breaker, and once an effect is added to a chain, then per normal chaining rules, your opponent can now respond or pass himself.

In addition to that, technically, you never signal, or "call" priority. You inherently have it as the Turn Player and you either choose to use it or pass. It's not something your opponent can say you forgot to use, because he's not allowed to respond until you've conveyed to him whether your going to use it or not. But in Breaker's case, Breaker's effect forcibly activating like it does, it automatically become that first link in the chain that you would normally have priority to start. You just don't get a choice with Breaker, or with any Mandatory Trigger Effect that triggers upon summoning. The same thing would happen if you summon a monster with Stumbling active.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
hmmmm - now i must ask - can you summon breaker and use/retain priority to "break"? since technically he dosent have his counter yet, are conditions correct? or do you have to wait for counter to hit field/breaker to use / retain priority to "break"???????? i think this was answered - but to be absolutely clear....
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
cuzwbd said:
hmmmm - now i must ask - can you summon breaker and use/retain priority to "break"? since technically he dosent have his counter yet, are conditions correct? or do you have to wait for counter to hit field/breaker to use / retain priority to "break"???????? i think this was answered - but to be absolutely clear....
Click to expand...
To "break", you need to pay.
In order to pay, your Breaker must have a Spell Counter.
The Spell Counter is not placed until Breaker's Trigger Effect resolves.

So Breaker won't have a Spell Counter until the first chain resolves, and Breaker's Ignition Effect cannot be used during that first chain. It couldn't be used at that point anyway, since an Ignition Effect cannot be chained.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Digital Jedi said:
Because Breaker's effect is a Mandatory Trigger, Priority isn't used or passed. Breakers effect automatically triggers upon summoning, and becomes the first link in the chain we like to refer to as the Summon Response Chain. Since the effect forcibly triggers, your priority is essentially "used up" by that effect. You've created a chain link in response to your summon just by summoning Breaker, and once an effect is added to a chain, then per normal chaining rules, your opponent can now respond or pass himself.
Click to expand...

Is this summon response chain the same reason why Mobius still takes two Magic/Traps even if he is Bottomless Trap Holed (and the effects of the other Monarchs also)? So the summoning of the monster is never chain link 1?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Yes, that is correct. Summoning does not use the chain, so you can not chain to a normal/tribute/special summon from hand. And yes, Mobius is a trigger, and his trigger, not his summoning, is chain link 1, which one can then chain with BTH, etc.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
TO simple put.

The foe normal summons Breaker
The foe doesn't activate it's spell counter effect. (It' stays 1900)
Breaker declares an attack with the spell counter. (Or he declared to enter battle phase)
NOW activate Ring of D.

There. Simple.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
darkjason said:
Yes, that is correct. Summoning does not use the chain, so you can not chain to a normal/tribute/special summon from hand. And yes, Mobius is a trigger, and his trigger, not his summoning, is chain link 1, which one can then chain with BTH, etc.
Click to expand...

Thanks for helping me clear this up in my mind darkjason
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top