celestial transformation question

[woltarr]

question 1

if i use Celestial Transformation on the agent of force - MARS while sanctuary in the sky is on the field what would happen in the end of the turn

1- mars remain because is now unaffected by spell cards
2- mars go to grave due the effct of CT
3- kevin tewart doesnt know what he is doing
4- none of above

question 2

if i use CT on mars , CT will halve his atck(zero) THEM the effct of mars kicks in ?

base for this reasoning : jinzo versus rope of life rules

by the scenario the trap has a effct on jinzo BEFORE his effct kicks in thus jinzo gains 800 atck


thanks

woltarr

 

[Maruno]

For your second question, the ATK of Mars will be halved, as during that time Celestial Transformation is still resolving, and Mars' effect won't kick in until after it has done so.

I don't know about your first question, though. I was going to say option 2, since the destruction part of the card is a condition, and effect =/= condition. However, considering Elemental Hero Wildheart vs Return From the Different Dimension, I'm inclined to say otherwise.

 

[novastar]

"You can Special Summon "Elemental Hero Wildheart" with "Return from the Different Dimension" and it will not be removed from play during the End Phase."

Going by this ruling, i would be inclined to believe that Mars would not be destroyed.

 

[masterwoo0]

You wouldnt believe the argument I am having on another Forum over this card!! Some people actually think the monster is halved during the End Phase before it is destroyed, and that basically, you could summon a card like Moisture Creature at 2800 ATK, and he would be 2800 until the End Phase, then 1400 before being destroyed.

They say because there is no "comma" that that is the reason. I guess they need to make a "Common Sense" Tip Card, and start putting that in the newer Packs.

 

[HorusMaster]

"You can Special Summon "Elemental Hero Wildheart" with "Return from the Different Dimension" and it will not be removed from play during the End Phase."

Going by this ruling, i would be inclined to believe that Mars would not be destroyed.

From the Ronin website:
"¢ "Elemental Hero Wildheart" is unaffected by the effects of Trap Cards.

"¢ "The Agent of Force - Mars" is unaffected by Spell Cards.

"¢ You can Special Summon "Elemental Hero Wildheart" with "Return from the Different Dimension" and it will not be removed from play during the End Phase.

"¢ Special Summon one Fairy-type monster from your hand. Halve the ATK of that monster and destroy it during the End Phase.

Based on these rulings for Elemental Hero Wildheart, I would agree that Mars is NOT destroyed during the end phase because he is unaffected by Spell Cards and would remain on the field AND his ATK would NOT be halved.

 

[Maruno]

But given Mars' effect only works on the field (otherwise you couldn't use Celestial Transformation on him in the first place), and that continuous effects such as his kick in during a pause in play (between chain links, etc.), and also that the ATK halving occurs during resolution of the card, it is safe to say that the ATK is indeed halved.

Whether it immediately reverts back to normal is another matter. Yes, because it's because of a Spell Card, and no, because it's now an ATK modifier instead of a Spell Card effect. I couldn't say which.

 

[ygo doc]

If we apply rulings involving "Jinzo" vs. "Ceasefire" or "Jinzo" vs. "Rope of Life", "The Agent of Force - Mars" will have its ATK halved by "Celestial Transformation". However, the ATK at the time is zero, so essentially there is no effect.

One of the unwritten rules of Yu-Gi-Oh! would state that a continuous effect brought into play DURING the resolution of a card effect, cannot interrupt the resolution of that same card effect.

"Jinzo" if flipped face-up by "Ceasefire", cannot negate the effect damage. "Jinzo" when special summoned by "Rope of Life" will not negate the 800 ATK bonus.

"The Agent of Force - Mars" effect cannot be applied during the resolution of "Celestial Transformation", so its ATK is halved when its ATK is still zero. Once CT has resolved, TAoF-M is not affected by spell cards. If "Sanctuary of the Sky" is on your side of the Field and your LP's are higher than your opponent's LP's, TAoF-M will increase its ATK and DEF by the difference in Lifepoints. TAoF-M will not be destroyed at End Phase.

doc

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'd have to agree based on the rules for Continuous Effects, no part of his effect would kick in, being unaffected by Spell Cards and the increase in ATK and DEF, until Celestial Transformation resolves. And as doc points out, there is nothing to halve until the Continuous Effect becomes active. Though I'd be inclined to say that it does destroy the card in the End Phase, as whether or not it's the effect of a Spell Card doesn't matter. Neither Lingering Effects or Lingering Conditions can be negated by Mars.

 

[masterwoo0]

I'd have to agree based on the rules for Continuous Effects, no part of his effect would kick in, being unaffected by Spell Cards and the increase in ATK and DEF, until Celestial Transformation resolves. And as doc points out, there is nothing to halve until the Continuous Effect becomes active. Though I'd be inclined to say that it does destroy the card in the End Phase, as whether or not it's the effect of a Spell Card doesn't matter. Neither Lingering Effects or Lingering Conditions can be negated by Mars.

But summoning The Agent of force - mars is the same as summoning elemental hero Wildheart from removed from play with return from the different dimension. If Wildheart isnt removed at the End Phase, then neither should Mars be destroyed.

 

[Digital Jedi]

Yeah, they did rule that way didn't they. I'm still expecting them to secretly revoke that ruling at some point.

 

[novastar]

I definately can see the logic in a reverse ruling, but the precedence of the Return ruling definately makes it pretty clear that Mars would not be destroyed.

The idea seems to be that the destruction is a "delayed resolution" of sorts, that doesn't resolve during that chain link, and would try to affect Mars during the End Phase... but cannot.

 

[Kyhotae]

Well, it might be picking nits, but the difference between "Elemental Hero Wildheart" and "The Agent of Force - Mars" is that "Elemental Hero Wildheart" is unaffected by the effects of Trap Cards. "The Agent of Force - Mars" is unaffected by Spell Cards (not the effects of...).

Could this mean that since the Spell Card is gone with the second part of the effect resolves that "The Agent of Force - Mars" is affected by the effect and destroyed? Could be...

Or I'm just way off base...

 

[ygo doc]

Well, it might be picking nits, but the difference between "Elemental Hero Wildheart" and "The Agent of Force - Mars" is that "Elemental Hero Wildheart" is unaffected by the effects of Trap Cards. "The Agent of Force - Mars" is unaffected by Spell Cards (not the effects of...).

Could this mean that since the Spell Card is gone with the second part of the effect resolves that "The Agent of Force - Mars" is affected by the effect and destroyed? Could be...

Or I'm just way off base...

There is NO difference here in the meaning. Here's the quote from the Advanced Play FAQ from UDE:

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Unaffected by Spell Cards[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Added June 2005[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some monsters are "unaffected by Spell Cards". The more complete meaning of this is: "unaffected by the effects of Spell Cards while this monster is face-up on the field".

[/font]
doc

 

[leaf_dave]

I don't know how you guys/gals see it but, if it helps, here's my take on the situation.

"Elemental Hero Wildheart" is unaffected by Traps which is why it survives from "Return From the Different Dimension" during the end phase. An effect ("Return From the Different Dimension") is trying to destroy "Elemental Hero Wildheart".

"Jinzo" CAN be affected by Traps because he only does two things while it is face-up on the field:
1. Make it impossible to ACTIVATE Traps.
2. Negate FACE-UP Traps.
Nothing makes him unaffected by the effects of Traps.

So in short, "Elemental Hero Wildheart" vs "Return From the Different Dimension" should be the closest extrapulation to the correct answer.

 

[masterwoo0]

I think most of us have come to that same conclusion, Leaf_Dave...

Well, it might be picking nits, but the difference between "Elemental Hero Wildheart" and "The Agent of Force - Mars" is that "Elemental Hero Wildheart" is unaffected by the effects of Trap Cards. "The Agent of Force - Mars" is unaffected by Spell Cards (not the effects of...).

Could this mean that since the Spell Card is gone with the second part of the effect resolves that "The Agent of Force - Mars" is affected by the effect and destroyed? Could be...

Or I'm just way off base...

With the recent ruling on Horus LV6 vs Diamond Dude, we know that nit-picking is not going to work. "Unaffected" means "Unaffected".

 

[novastar]

The term "unaffected" is self-explainatory, and actually means "not affected by the effects" a Spell/Trap Card.

The newer text on Wildheart is unneccessary and seems to have been put there for people who need that extra bit of clarification.

 

[Maruno]

The term "unaffected" is self-explainatory, and actually means "not affected by the effects" a Spell/Trap Card.

The newer text on Wildheart is unneccessary and seems to have been put there for people who need that extra bit of clarification.

That's true. "Unaffected by Trap Cards" would actually mean the card is immune to being jabbed at by a Trap Card. And we all (hopefully) know that's not a game mechanic.