Checking: requirements for activation

[Dr Sin]

All right, this was already discussed but this specific point was not completely clarified (at least for me):

The situation is responding to an attack:

My opponent has a Blade Knight face-up in attack mode, 3 cards in hand. I have one Chiron The Mage in face-up attack mode and one set s/t (it's a Magic Cylinder). Right, he it comes:

1) This I really want to confirm: who has the right to 1st respond to an attack, turn player or non-turn player? Example: Turn player, after declaring the attack activates Enemy Controller, before opponent respond with anything. Does he have the right to do it? (be the 1st link on the chain)

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

thanks in advance.

 

[BenjaminMS]

You can chain yes, and your opponent can do that, yes....
About acting from hand: I'll later make a rant about that, coz I've got the feeling it is wrongly understood about acting cards in the Battlephase... but that is of later concern.

 

[Dr Sin]

Okay, let's put some more details:

Same situation, opponent declares an attack with Blade (1600 atk) to my Chiron. Opponent has priority to respond to the attack, as he is the turn player. He chooses not to respond. Then priority passes to me, and as Blade is still weaker than Chiron I choose not to repond either. All right, priority passes back to opponent again, and now he activates Enemy Controller, targeting my Chiron.
Now the point that is confusing me: if I activate Magic Cylinder, is the timing still correct? All right, the last action that will resolve will be Blade's attack.
BUT it can be argued that Cylinder in this case, was chained to Enemy Controller, even in a logic way, because if my opponent hadn't activate EC, I would not activate Cylinder.
Well, it's just to check and just thinking in a logic way to explain, and I believe that, anyway, Cylinder can be chained (simply because the attack will be the last action to resolve, and the "first event"). Is it right?

Thanks

 

[Jason_C]

I know of no way the opponent could activate EC in this situation. I am 99.999% positive that, through a LONG debate, it has been pretty much confirmed in the thread "Enemy Controller Question" that the opponent does not have the right to activate EC in this example. By passing priority to respond to the attack, they are effectively surrendering control of the response window to the opponent. If the opponent passes, the Battle Step ends, and we proceed to the Damage Step.

So to answer the question "Can I still activate Magic Cylinder here?" the answer is that it doesn't matter, because that is a hypothetical and impossible scenario.

If you want to see that thread, search the rules forums for "Kosher".

-pssvr

PS I'm only posting this to reassure myself...

 

[Tkwiget]

Pssvr is right, if the priority is passed completely around the board then you proceed to the next Phase/Step that comes next.

Enemy Controller was illegally activated in this situation. Magic Cylinder wasn't even an issue since the "Attack-Response Window" is now closed.

You only have the chance to create a second chain block in the Battle Phase if you first use the "Attack-Response Window" that opens when a player declares an attack. If this response window hasn't been used, then you don't get a chance to create another chain block.

 

[skey23]

I'll just pop in and state that I still completely disagree with you both on this...TTFN!

 

[Tkwiget]

Umm, disagree with us on what?

 

[skey23]

Your answers to his question.

 

[Tkwiget]

Oh.....I see what you mean..lol The question was worded a little "tricky" IMO..I get what you mean Skey.. =)


1) This I really want to confirm: who has the right to 1st respond to an attack, turn player or non-turn player? Example: Turn player, after declaring the attack activates Enemy Controller, before opponent respond with anything. Does he have the right to do it? (be the 1st link on the chain)

Turn Player has priority to respond to the entering of any Phase/Step of the game. For your question, yes, Turn Player can activate Enemy Controller in response to his/her own declared attack before the opponent can.

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

The answer is no, you can't activate Magic Cylinder because the timing of Magic Cylinder would no longer be activating in response to a declared attack. The "Attack-Response Window" is closed and the "Non-Attack Response Window" openned up. Enemy Controller was activated from your opponent's hand on their turn, which makes the card's activation legal.

Misread the question and over looked the response window stuff at the Battle Step. @_@

Skey, would my answers be more accurate on this?

<thinks about getting some coffee>

 

[Jason_C]

I could not possibly disagree with you more, Twiggy. (Oh boy... here we go again... I think I need some aspirin, my head still hurts from the LAST debate on this). It is absolutely NOT possible for Enemy Controller to be activated in this scenario. This is because the chain point has passed. There are only two default chain points in the battle step. One is before the attack is declared, one is after. While there can be any number of chains in this step, these are the only two the game mandates. So if both players pass priority in the second point, we go to the Damage Step.

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Yay! Ok, if we all remember our discussion from before, then this 'should' be correct.

After the attack declaration, there are 2 (two) response windows available to activate things. The Attack Response Window, and pssvr's favorite, the Non-response Window. If both players pass during the Attack Response Window, then the timing for cards like "Magic Cylinders" and "Sakuretsu Armor" has been missed. We now move into the Non-response Window. Cards that do not have any activation requirements CAN be activated here. Cards like "Enemy Controller", "Waboku", "Gravity Bind", and "Book of Moon". If both players pass Priority here, THEN they've both aGreed to move into the Damage Step.

Let the debate begin AGAIN!! :icon_excl

 

[Jason_C]

Yay! Ok, if we all remember our discussion from before, then this 'should' be correct.

After the attack declaration, there are 2 (two) response windows available to activate things. The Attack Response Window, and pssvr's favorite, the Non-response Window. If both players pass during the Attack Response Window, then the timing for cards like "Magic Cylinders" and "Sakuretsu Armor" has been missed. We now move into the Non-response Window. Cards that do not have any activation requirements CAN be activated here. Cards like "Enemy Controller", "Waboku", "Gravity Bind", and "Book of Moon". If both players pass Priority here, THEN they've both aGreed to move into the Damage Step.

Let the debate begin AGAIN!! :icon_excl

You are so close, it's scary. But no. That is the point I was supporting throughout most of the debate, but towards the end, it was decided that that really only applies to the Main Phase. Here's how it goes:

There are two chain points in the Battle Step. There are never more than two unless something is activated. One chain point is before the attack is declared (hence is not really relevant to the point being argued) and one is after. After the attack, the Turn Player may respond. If the TP chooses NOT to respond, then the OP may or may not respond. If the OP ALSO chooses not to respond, the Step ends.

If either player HAD responded to the the attack, then after that chain resolves, a new chain point would occur, still in the Battle Step. But since no one did, the opportunity is gone. We are now in the DAMAGE STEP.

-pssvr

<EDIT: Thank you, squid>

 

[squid]

You are so close, it's scary. But no. That is the point I was supporting throughout most of the debate, but towards the end, it was decided that that really only applies to the Main Phase. Here's how it goes:

There are two chain points in the Battle Step. There are never more than two unless something is activated. One chain point is before the attack is declared (hence is not really relevant to the point being argued) and one is after. After the attack, the Turn Player may respond. If the TP chooses NOT to respond, then the OP may or may not respond. If the OP ALSO chooses not to respond, the Step ends.

If either player HAD responded to the the attack, then after that chain resolves, a new chain point would occur, still in the Battle Step. But since no one did, the opportunity is gone. We are now in the battle phase.

-pssvr

I think you mean you are in the Damage Step of the Battle Phase. You would have to have already entered the Battle Phase in order to declare an attack in the first place.

 

[skey23]

**sigh**..Here we go again!..lol. Since both Danker and Nova are currently viewing this, I'll wait and see what they have to say...lol.

[edit]BTW...I went back and re-read all 14 pages of the previous debate. I still believe that what I posted above is correct.
For those interested in reading the previous discussion, you can find it here:
http://www.cogonline.net/threads.13303

Enjoy!

 

[Tkwiget]

Hmm....well this subject always gave me a huge headache. After all, the Battle Phase is the most complex game phase of YGO anyway. Lol, lots of stuff happens in it.


First off, there are no Chain Points to an attack. They're called response windows.

There's two of these windows. One that opens when the monster declares an attack and another one after that.

Since there's at least two response windows created from a monster declaring an attack, they should be labeled PROPERALLY!!!

Attack-Response Window = in direct response to a monster attack.

This would mean cards like Sakuretsu Armor, Widespread Ruin, and Magic Cylinder could activate.

Non-Attack Response Window = indirectly in response to a monster attack.

This would mean cards like Wall of Revealing Light, Gravity Bind, Waboku, Book of Moon, and Enemy Controller could activate.

Now, back to the original question.

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

This is how the chain block is going..

P1: Declares attack with Blade Knight to Chiron.
P1: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P2: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P1: Responds with Enemy Controller in the Non-Attack Response Window.
P2: Has nothing to chain to it.

Chiron is changed to defense. Blade Knight rams into it and destroys Chiron the Mage.

 

[Jason_C]

Hmm....well this subject always gave me a huge headache. After all, the Battle Phase is the most complex game phase of YGO anyway. Lol, lots of stuff happens in it.


First off, there are no Chain Points to an attack. They're called response windows.

They are the same thing.

There's two of these windows. One that opens when the monster declares an attack and another one after that.

Incorrect. There is one window before the attack and one after.

Attack-Response Window = in direct response to a monster attack.

Correct.

This would mean cards like Sakuretsu Armor, Widespread Ruin, and Magic Cylinder could activate.

Correct.

Non-Attack Response Window = indirectly in response to a monster attack.

Still correct...

This would mean cards like Wall of Revealing Light, Gravity Bind, Waboku, Book of Moon, and Enemy Controller could activate.

Once again, correct...

Now, back to the original question.

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

This is how the chain block is going..

P1: Declares attack with Blade Knight to Chiron.
P1: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P2: Doesn't respond to the declared attack.
P1: Responds with Enemy Controller in the Non-Attack Response Window.
P2: Has nothing to chain to it.

Impossible. Enemy Controller has been illegally activated. The absence of any response to the attack means there will be no non-responsive window.

-pssvr

 

[Tkwiget]

<rubs eyes and signs heavily> Where's my beer?

Thank god my college break is coming soon. Lol.. So much for using that Battle Phase chart, it's useless.

Chain points and response windows aren't the same. A Chain Point would be whenever a Spell, Trap, or Monster Effect (other than Continuous) activates. They become Link 1 of the chain and that would be a Chain Point. So they aren't the same.


Pssvr, you have to keep in mind that everything we're saying is in the Battle Step. Sure you can activate stuff in response to the Start Step (which is before the Battle Step) and say it's a response window before the declared attack. Sure, that piece of information is correct. However we aren't talking about the Start Step, we're talking about the Battle Step.

The fact that a Non-Attack Response window is after the Attack-Response Window is what makes it possible for multiple chains in the battle phase. That's where it's located.

Since Enemy Controller has no activation requirement it can activate in the Non-Attack Response Window to switch the monster's battle position and stop the attack.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

There's nothing in the game mechanics to suggest that there is a limit to the number of times priority can be passed back and forth.

The only reason you can't pass back and forth ever is because it would be stalling.

 

[krazykidpsx]

actually isnt it:

PA - Declare Attack with Creature
PB - Responce to Attack
PA - Responce to Attack


etc..etc..

the reason i bring this up is becuase cards like Mystic Swordsman Lv 2 would kill the creatures upon confirming that its fine to attack.

but in this case,

the situation would be.
PA - Declares an Attack with MSLv2
PA - Upon Declaration chains Book of Moon targeting the monster its going to battle with.
PB - Can now respond?

this seems a bit incorrect.

 

[skey23]

...the situation would be.
PA - Declares an Attack with MSLv2
PA - Upon Declaration chains Book of Moon targeting the monster its going to battle with.
PB - Can now respond?

this seems a bit incorrect.

Actually, that's perfectly fine because the Turn Player retains Priority after the attack declaration. The only thing to remember is that PA doesn't 'chain' to the attack declaration, they are responding to it.