Checking: requirements for activation

[Dr Sin]

All right, this was already discussed but this specific point was not completely clarified (at least for me):

The situation is responding to an attack:

My opponent has a Blade Knight face-up in attack mode, 3 cards in hand. I have one Chiron The Mage in face-up attack mode and one set s/t (it's a Magic Cylinder). Right, he it comes:

1) This I really want to confirm: who has the right to 1st respond to an attack, turn player or non-turn player? Example: Turn player, after declaring the attack activates Enemy Controller, before opponent respond with anything. Does he have the right to do it? (be the 1st link on the chain)

2) For the first question, I believe the answer is yes, turn-player can first respond to an attack. But let's say he attacks with Blade and doesn't respond with anything. As the Blade is weaker than Chiron at this moment, I choose not to respond. Than, as I didn't respond, opponent activates EC from hand, targeting my Chiron. At this moment, can I still activate my Magic Cylinder (is the time still correct)? I believe that yes, I can.

thanks in advance.

 

[Jason_C]

Are you gonna make me copy your Non-response Window thing again and change it for the Draw Phase? Or for all of the Phases?...lol...:duel_no_j

Go ahead! I stand by what I said, that the non-response window only occurs when there is some definite REASON why it ought to. The game just doens't create windows to make SURE no one wants to do anything.

-pssvr

 

[novastar]

Yeah... but... If I draw, there is a response window. If both players pass, that window ends, as does the phase.

Where did you get this?

That is the flaw...you cannot end a Phase/Step on an outstanding Response timing.

You must resolve the timing first...then you can decide on the Phase/Step... this is fundamental.

That is the proper way it's works mechanically...of course in real life, Players usually short form it and skip over this stuff, to speed the game up.

 

[Jason_C]

Where did you get this?

That is the flaw...you cannot end a Phase/Step on an outstanding Response timing.

You must resolve the timing first...then you can decide on the Phase/Step... this is fundamental.

That is the proper way it's works mechanically...of course in real life, Players usually short form it and skip over this stuff, to speed the game up.

...and there you go, ladies and gentleman. I'm re-adding you to my personal list of Extremely Helpful People. Which is odd, since you never got taken off...

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Go ahead! I stand by what I said, that the non-response window only occurs when there is some definite REASON why it ought to. The game just doens't create windows to make SURE no one wants to do anything.

Ok, so here goes again...lol

P1 draws a card.
P1 now has Priority to, among other things, activate any valid Spell/Trap cards. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects.
P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.
P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the Draw Response Window.
Instead of leaving the Draw Phase, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Standby Phase, most notable activate spell speed 2 effects like "Reload".

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

Hmm..sound familiar?...lol

 

[Jason_C]

Ok, so here goes again...lol

P1 draws a card.
P1 now has Priority to, among other things, activate any valid Spell/Trap cards. HOWEVER, there are certain things P1 CANNOT DO, most notably activate spell speed 1 effects.
P1 chooses NOT to activate anything, surrendering priority to P2.
P2 also chooses NOT to activate anything, thereby ending the Draw Response Window.
Instead of leaving the Draw Phase, as might be expected, we now pass into a Non-responsive window. Why? Because P1 might have something else they want to do before entering the Standby Phase, most notable activate spell speed 2 effects like "Reload".

...and that's what it's all about. In the example I just gave, the response window had limits, so after it ended, we went to a non-responsive window.

Hmm..sound familiar?...lol

No, that doesn't sound familiar to me, because in the example you just gave, well... let me just... look at the bolded text in what you just said. You'll note that the two bolded phrases ARE NOT THE SAME.

...and that is the key to what I was saying... which is a m00t point now that Nova explained everything... I know the meaning of life!

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

So, young Padewan (sp?). Are you saying you now agree to the Non-response Window being valid in the Battle Step AFTER the Attack Response Window? No matter if the Attack Response Window as used or not?

 

[Jason_C]

No, I don't agree to it. But I don't agree to a lot of things in this game. I DO, however, accept it.

-pssvr

 

[skey23]

Does everybody else agree/accept it now as well? **waves hand in a Jedi-like manner** ***This IS the response window you were looking for....This IS the response window you were looking for...*** Hey..where's the Star Wars smileys?? :cog_huh2_

 

[Dr Sin]

Wow, I wanted an answer and I got a whole discussion (and I liked very much this discussion, because it answered a lot of my questions)
But just to re-confirm: So, is it aGreed that Skey23 statement is correct and accurate? (in my opinion-well, it's not much relevant- it is)
This model of response window, priority for TP, then for NTP, end of the response window/ Non-responsive window, priority for TP, then for NTP satisfies my doubts, and makes all phases of a turn in YGO more similar and logical. And, IMO, guess this model would apply to all phases of a turn, except the damage step. Right?
Well, thanks for all you guys...

 

[Jason_C]

Wow, I wanted an answer and I got a whole discussion (and I liked very much this discussion, because it answered a lot of my questions)
But just to re-confirm: So, is it aGreed that Skey23 statement is correct and accurate? (in my opinion-well, it's not much relevant- it is)
This model of response window, priority for TP, then for NTP, end of the response window/ Non-responsive window, priority for TP, then for NTP satisfies my doubts, and makes all phases of a turn in YGO more similar and logical. And, IMO, guess this model would apply to all phases of a turn, except the damage step. Right?
Well, thanks for all you guys...

Yes.

-pssvr

 

[Tkwiget]

Skey, what you've said is pretty much what I've been saying and thinking that is correct now and in the other 200+ post thread about it all.

A good thing to remember is that if a player has something to activate in response to an attack, they'll activate it. If not, then they won't activate anything. That's just a given rule of thumb.

What Skey said about the Draw Phase is incorrect though.

Draw Phase only will allow Priority to Shift one round among the players. There isn't any point of it going a second time around.

It's like the Standby Phase as well. You only get one response window and one only. In that response window you only get one round of priority among the players.

That's just my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Jason_C]

That's what I've been saying this whole time. But Novastar disagrees, and I've NEVER known him to be wrong or even not-too-sure about something.

-pssvr

 

[Dr Sin]

Skey and pssvr... wouldn't it be more consistent if this model applies to all phases, except damage step?
The following situation, at least for me, shows a legal situation that would occour during Draw Phase:

P1 begins his turn, drawing a card. He passes priority.
P2 respond to the draw, activating Drop Off.
P1 chains 7 Tools.
P2 does not respond, ending the response window.

non-responsive window:

P1 chooses to activate whatever or passes (no matter what)
P2 activates Last Turn (for example)

Isn't that a legal and perfectly possible case of the model in the draw phase? For me, there is not a minimal "clue" tolding us this is not possible.

Thanks.

 

[Jason_C]

That is a legal and perfectly possible scenario, and does not conflict with anything Skey and I have said.

My argument throughout this thread (up until the very end) was that a non-responsive window WOULD occur any time it was necessary.

In the example you gave, a response chain was started in the draw phase. When it resolves, the opportunity to begin a new chain MUST come. The reason for this is that so far, both players have NOT passed priority consecutively in any window EXCEPT when forming a chain. So that means the phase can't end, and must move on to a non-responsive window.

The phase can never end unless both players agree to it ending. The argument has been over how many times they have to agree to it. I said once they both pass, they've aGreed, and that's final. Nova and Skey disagree. And now I'm all turned around again.

-pssvr

 

[Dr Sin]

Now I understood... sorry.
And agree with your point.

 

[skey23]

Actually, THIS is what I have been trying to say...

The Non-response window is NOT dependant upon any actions taking place during an Event-response window.

Meaning...

Action occured: Draw a card, Summon, Declare an attack, Enter a Phase, etc...
Event-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Event-response window. Timing is now passed.
Non-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Non-response window.
Both players have passed on Non-response window.
End Phase and/or Step

Just because they both passed on the response window, the Phase/Step didn't end immediately. The whole point behind having both response windows is for strategic game play. If you suspect your opponent has a card set that can only be activated when you specifically draw a card during the draw phase (not just during the draw phase), then by passing Priority to them during the response window, you are forcing them to make the decision to activate their card or not. If they pass, then they have missed the timing and will not be able to respond with that card during the Non-response window.

I completely agree that when both players pass on a Non-response window, then they have BOTH aGreed to end that Step and/or Phase.

Now I also believe (not stating a fact here) there can, and will be, multiple Non-response windows during ANY Phase or Step (except Damage Step) if an action was performed during the previous Non-response Window. Meaning...

Action occured: Draw a card, Summon, Declare an attack, Enter a Phase, etc...
Event-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Event-response window. Timing is now passed.
Non-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - Activate card effect.
P1 - Chain
P2 - no response
Resolve chain
End Non-response window.
Non-response window: Because of previous chain.
P1 - Activate card effect.
P2 - pass
Resolve card effect.
End Non-response window.
Non-response window: Because of previous card effect.
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Non-response window.
Both players have passed on Non-response window.
End Phase and/or Step

This process could go on for as long as there were cards that could be activated and chained.

THAT is what I've been trying to say.

Does this 'jive' with what everybody is thinking?

 

[Jason_C]

Actually, THIS is what I have been trying to say...

The Non-response window is NOT dependant upon any actions taking place during an Event-response window.

I strongly disagree.

Meaning...

Action occured: Draw a card, Summon, Declare an attack, Enter a Phase, etc...
Event-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Event-response window. Timing is now passed.
Non-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Non-response window.
Both players have passed on BOTH windows for activating.
End Phase and/or Step

The second window should never have existed, IMO.

Just because they both passed on the response window, the Phase/Step didn't end immediately. The whole point behind having both response windows is for strategic game play. If you suspect your opponent has a card set that can only be activated when you specifically draw a card during the draw phase (not just during the draw phase), then by passing Priority to them during the response window, you are forcing them to make the decision to activate their card or not. If they pass, then they have missed the timing and will not be able to respond with that card during the Non-response window.

That makes sense. But I still say the game isn't going to create that extra window just to see if someone wants to pull off something sneaky. The concept of priority and windows to start chains is meant to BALANCE the game, not open the door for abuse.

I completely agree that when both players pass on a Non-response window, then they have BOTH aGreed to end that Step and/or Phase.

That would be correct.

Now I also believe (not stating a fact here) there can, and will be, multiple Non-response windows during ANY Phase or Step (except Damage Step) if an action was performed during the previous Non-response Window. Meaning...

Action occured: Draw a card, Summon, Declare an attack, Enter a Phase, etc...
Event-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Event-response window. Timing is now passed.
Non-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - Activate card effect.
P1 - Chain
P2 - no response
Resolve chain
End Non-response window.
Non-response window: Because of previous chain.
P1 - Activate card effect.
P2 - pass
Resolve card effect.
End Non-response window.
Non-response window: Because of previous card effect.
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Non-response window.
Both players have passed on BOTH windows for activating.
End Phase and/or Step

This process could go on for as long as there were cards that could be activated and chained.

Close, but not quite. *hands skey his trophy* The world is a better place because of that example. Except for the fact that you went into a non-responsive window after both players passed in the response window, which can only occur after a summon.

You use Microsoft Word? You know how when you insert a table, all the windows (grid sections, textboxes, whatever you want to call them) start out really small, and you think "I'm never going to be able to type my message in that tiny window" but then, as you type, the box expands to capacitate your message?

That's what a phase is like. It starts with one small window, but grows indefinitely larger as more is put into it. One you stop putting text in, it stops growing. If you never choose to use it in the first place, it never grows at all.

-pssvr

 

[John Danker]

Action occured: Draw a card, Summon, Declare an attack, Enter a Phase, etc...
Event-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Event-response window. Timing is now passed.
Non-response window:
P1 - pass
P2 - pass
End Non-response window.
Both players have passed on Non-response window.
End Phase and/or Step

We realize that if we include summon in this it isn't necessarily the last chance to activate Torrential Tribute or BTH right? (just checking to make sure we're all on the same page) The timing for either is still correct even after these windows are passed on. (knowing full well there are those who will argue this point as has been done so before)

 

[Jason_C]

We realize that if we include summon in this it isn't necessarily the last chance to activate Torrential Tribute or BTH right? (just checking to make sure we're all on the same page) The timing for either is still correct even after these windows are passed on. (knowing full well there are those who will argue this point as has been done so before)

If you're talking about Kevin's message saying that when both players pass on response to a summon, torrential can still be activated, then I'm PRETTY SURE, but not positive, that we've basically concluded he's just flat out wrong.

or am I?

-pssvr

 

[John Danker]

If you're talking about Kevin's message saying that when both players pass on response to a summon, torrential can still be activated, then I'm PRETTY SURE, but not positive, that we've basically concluded he's just flat out wrong.

or am I?

-pssvr

The last "fact" is still that a monster was summoned, it's as simple as that, therefore, the timing is still correct. It has nothing to do with priority or response windows.