Concrete Jungle/Attack Effects and Poison Ivy's effect.

M

MarvelKnight74

New Member
I have a few question i have been trying to find the answer for and have had no luck.

1) if i have concrete jungle in play, can my opponent flip a location if they have no cards to dicard?

2)If Charaxes and Mr Zsasz tam attack an exhausted defender and stunned the defender, do both characters get their effects for stunning the character?

3)Poison Ivy's effect states that the character she stuns cannot be revovered if that is the card the player is going to recover, and that it cannot be KOd. does this mean that the character she stuns must be left on the field stunned or can they keep the character she stunned and another character that they chose. This question as also be brought up regarding 7 drop magneto as well.

Thanx in advadnace for everyones help.
 
1. Yes. The discard is not a cost, just an added effect. If they have a card, they must discard (as they must fulfill as much of the effect as possible), but if their hand is empty, they can still flip a location. They are still fulfilling as much of the effect as possible.

2. Yes. In a team attack that results in a stun of the defender, all characters involved in the team attack are considered to have stunned the defender.

3. Poison Ivy's effect means that if the controller of the stunned character wishes to keep that character for next turn, they cannot recover it. It will remain on the field stunned. If they choose to recover a different character instead, the one that Poison Ivy stunned will still be KO'd as normal. Note that Poison Ivy's effect only applies if they wish to recover the character.

7-drop Magneto is different in that it states that opponent's characters cannot be recovered. This means that even if a character is chosen to be recovered through the wrap-up, they cannot and will be KO'd (unless an effect like Lazarus pit prevents it).
 
thank you for a speedy reply. though today another question had arisen that i think i know the answer but would like a more experience judge to answer. here is the scenerio of events.

in my build step i played Killer Croc in my support row and played Fear and Confusion
my opponent then played roy harper, arsenal. in his formation step, he placed his 4 characters in the support row. Roy harper was the only character with range.
during my attack step i choose killer croc to attack roy harper, since he was the only one who could attack in my oppoenents attack step.
my opponent then flipped titan tower, he then discarded Cyborg to give roy harper a boost. he then exhausted the 3 other titans to give him more of a boost. he then exhausted roy harper to use his ability to stun killer croc. Now here is where er are confused. Shouldnt roy harper be exhausted from the effect of fear and confusion making the activation of roys second effect impossible to perform?
 
in my build step i played Killer Croc in my support row and played Fear and Confusion my opponent then played roy harper, arsenal. in his formation step, he placed his 4 characters in the support row. Roy harper was the only character with range. during my attack step i choose killer croc to attack roy harper, since he was the only one who could attack in my oppoenents attack step. my opponent then flipped titan tower, he then discarded Cyborg to give roy harper a boost. he then exhausted the 3 other titans to give him more of a boost. he then exhausted roy harper to use his ability to stun killer croc.
Click to expand...

ok so far so good

Now here is where er are confused. Shouldnt roy harper be exhausted from the effect of fear and confusion making the activation of roys second effect impossible to perform?
Click to expand...

That all depends on teh timing. All of what you descrived could be done while the trigger from Fear and Confusion is on the chain.

Fear and Confusion
Plot Twist, 1
While attacking this turn, characters you control get +1 ATK.
Whenever an Arkham Inmates character you control attacks a character this turn, exhaust that character.

This part sets up a delayed triggered modifier that triggers when your Arkmates character becomes an attack. All the above steps could be compelted while this trigger is on the chain.
 
Okay, the timing was as follows. By the way I'm the one playing Arkmates. I played FandC in build. It was my attack step so i declared an attack on Roy harper. My opponent then exhausted Obitron, then discarded Cyborg. then i told him okay but Roy exhausts. then he exhausted all his other teen titans and decided to activate roys effect to stun my killer croc.
Now i think that Roy should have exhausted meaning that the effect could not be activated, but i am only a level one judge and wanted to be clear before give an incorrect ruling.
 
A few problems with the scenario already:
First is that Optitron is never exhausted for its effect, but more importantly, part of the cost to use it is to spend 1 resource point. Resource points can only be spent during the recruit step. During any other time, no player has resource points (unless you meant Titan's Tower on second look).

To the point, however, when an Arkham Inmates character attacks (meaning they have exhausted for the attack [another thing that needs to be made clear in your example]), an effect goes on the chain that says 'exhaust the defender'. Until both players pass on this effect, the defender will not be exhausted by it. Your opponent could certainly exhaust the other Teen Titans characters to boost Roy Harper's ATK. Then, after those effects have all resolved (but still before the exhaustion effect from Fear and Confusion does), Roy Harper could activate.

And don't knock being a Level 1 Judge (and Level 2 Judges make mistakes, too . . . not that I ever have or anything . . . um ... .. ... .. stop looking at me like that). All that really means is you give 1 point in sanctioned events. It's knowledge and experience that really counts in the end.
 
Sorry I should have wrote that i exhausted for the attack. See, that is what was wrong with the scenario. it was Optitron he fliped. He never declared if he used the card or not. When were battling, He flipped optitron and discarded Vic Stone<>Cyborg. Then he passed his turn to me. I passed, he said okay. then after i mentioned that my Killer Croc was at a 12 ATK, that is when he decided to use the effect. See i knew that you can activate the effect of a character after it is chosen as a defender, but since i played fear and confusion in an early phase that was where i was thrown off. I didnt realize that i was a delayed trigger. So, it was a timing error more then a legality issue.

thank you for helping me figure that out. I will apologize and explain it to him when i see him saturday.

I do have a couple other questions that i need answered for my Discard deck i am working on.

1) Cracking the Vault states that i have to exhaust a character to activate then my opponent shows his hand all cards with the same name as cards he controls on the field are discarded. now the question is, since it doesnt specify "characters" does that effect apply to plot twist, locations and equipments. I think it does but need to make sure before i run this deck

2) Riddle me this states that i exhaust a ready arkham inmate and my opponent shows me two cards and i discard one of them, Since it doesnt specify does that mean i can exhaust multiple characters to use the effect multiple times?
 
Again, Optitron cannot be used that way. Are you sure it wasn't Titan's Tower?

Anyways,
1. Cracking the Vault applies to all cards your opponent controls, including face-up locations and plot twists.

2. Riddle Me This only allows for the exhaustion of one Arkham Inmates character per use of the card.
 
okay. let me get the whole chain stacking thing correct on this, another card question i have got me thinking of this.

okay. in the past scenerio i posted this is the order that the effects happened
1) i recruited killer croc and played fear and confusion
2) opponent recruited roy harper<>aresnal
3) i declare attack (according to the rule book Killer Crocs effect is automatic..but that later)
4) i passed
5) opponent exhausts 4 titans to activate Roy harpers first effect
6) opponent exhausts roy harper to stun killer croc with second effect.

okay according to the rules last effect on the chain resolves first, so the chain should look pretty much like this.

1) roy harper exhausts to stun killer croc. (roys attack should still be a 4)
2) roy harper now get +8 atk from the 4 exhausted titans
3) attack resolves killer croc now get +3 from his effect and fear and confusion resolves.

if that is correct then roy harpers effect would be useless. Roy harper should only be a 4 atk since his exhausting of the 4 titans has no resolved. or is there a loop hole in the system that isnt written.

though another question i have is about Tower of Babel. I read in some ruling list that tower of babel will not stop a team attack if it is played after the attack is proposed. but by the rule of chain it should make the attack illegal since they are not affiliated. can some explain

and also does tower of babel's effect work only on cards in play or all character in hand, KO and deck as well as play?
 
First, note Roy Harper's text:
Activate, KO a resource you control -> Stun target character with an ATK less than Roy Harper's ATK

Roy Harper cannot activate until the requirement is met.
Until Roy Harper's ATK is greater than Killer Croc (whose base ATK is 7), there is no issue.

Next, we look at the Attack step:

You propose (note, you do not attack yet) an attack with Killer Croc, targeting Roy Harper. You do not exhaust yet and will not exhaust, nor become an attacker, until both of you pass on an empty chain. You pass.
Opponent exhaust 4 Teen Titans characters in succession, letting each resolve (you both pass repeatedly). Roy Harper's ATK is now 12, greater than Killer Croc's. Roy Harper activates for his second effect, targeting Killer Croc. (note that the attack is still in the proposed part. Killer Croc is still not an attacker). Both players pass and Killer Croc is stunned. Both players pass on an empty chain and the game sees that one of the proposed attackers is illegal and the attack is cancelled.

Now, let's look at a slightly different situation. This time, Killer Croc proposes an attack and both players pass allowing Killer Croc to exhaust and become an attacker, with Roy Harper becoming a Defender. First, the continuous effects apply (Fear and Confusion). This doesn't go on the chain, so Killer Croc is an 8 ATK. Next, the triggered effects go on the chain. In this case, both triggered effects are controlled by the attacking player, so that player determines the order they go on the chain.

Assume the player chooses:
1. Killer Croc ATK increase.
2. Defender (Roy Harper) is exhausted.

At this point, the attacking player has priority and may add an effect or pass. The attacking player passes. The defending player has priority now and may put an effect on the chain (note that the effect number 2 has not resolved yet). The defending player chooses to exhaust a Teen Titan's character 4 times before passing priority back to the player. The chain thus far looks like this:

1. Killer Croc ATK increase
2. Exhaust defender (Roy Harper)
3. Roy Harper +2 ATK
4. Roy Harper +2 ATK
5. Roy Harper +2 ATK
6. Roy Harper +2 ATK

Assuming no one has anything else to add, both players start passing consecutively until we finish resolving down to 3. Roy Harper now has 12 ATK (Greater than Killer Croc's 8 ATK). The attacking (primary) player has priority and passes. The defending player activates Roy Harper, targeting Killer Croc. This is legal because Roy Harper's ATK is greater than Killer Croc's. So the chain is now as follows:

1. Killer Croc ATK increase.
2. Exhaust defender (Roy Harper)
3. Stun Killer Croc if Killer Croc's ATK is less than Roy Harper's.

Both players pass and Killer Croc is now stunned.
Both players pass again and Roy Harper is attempted to be exhausted, but is already exhausted.
Both players pass and Killer Croc's ATK increases by 3.
Both players pass again and the attack goes to conclusion, finds that there is no attacker and the attack ends.

As for the Tower of Babel, it depends on when it is played. Once an attack is deemed legal (attackers have exhausted), nothing can make the attack illegal. The game doesn't care if they don't share a team affiliation after they have become attackers. This is the same idea as moving a defender behind another after the attack is legal, even if at least one of the attackers doesn't have flight. The game doesn't care about that. It checked for legality when both players passed on an empty chain in the proposal step.

Tower of Babel applies only to characters, which are on the field in the front or support rows. It does not affect cards in the hand, resource row, deck, or KO pile.
 
Something to note is that VS is not like YGO in terms of chaining - it's possible for you to resolve certain links in a chain, then add more before resolving the rest.

With Arsenal, most often you'll see characters exhausted (effect resolves, Roy gets the boost) then his stun effect activated in the same chain.
 
Yes, i see that now. but i wish the rule books were more detailed about this and not that whole "LAST EFFECT RESOLVES FIRST". that was what was confusing. I understood that killer crocs attack was lower. but regardless, he never KOd a resource which is hardly the issue here.
But the one thing is that(i wish i was more clear on this) he did allows killer croc to exhaust, then when he realized that my attack increased he decided to chain.
so the way he did it would have been correct if he didnt pass allowing me to exhaust croc. thank you i think i can explain this to the guy now.

Regarding Fear and Confusions effect to boost all attackers +1 ATK. i didnt realize that was a event trigger. Shouldnt that effect activate as soon as played. the requires are met, or does the whole effect need to meet the requirements before any part resolves.
 
It has to do with the wording on Fear and Confusion. The +1 ATK is a continuous effect which doesn't go on the chain because the card states 'While attacking'. So the moment that an Arkham Inmates character gets the attacker characteristic, it is now +1.

However, the second effect is a trigger effect because it uses the text 'whenever'. The exhaustion effect therefore goes on the chain.

So in the example, with Killer Croc attacking (we'll leave Killer Croc's own bonus out of it), the moment Killer Croc exhausts and becomes an attacker, he is now at 8 ATK and will remain so as long as he remains an attacker. The exhaustion effect goes on the chain and needs to resolve before the defender will exhaust.

The end result of your scenario, however, is that regardless of which situation you use, Killer Croc will be stunned, Roy Harper will be exhausted and the controller of Roy Harper will have lost a resource.
 
I am sorry if it seems that I am beating a dead horse. But i am still unsure about the whole thing with chaining with Roy Harper's second effect. After i proposed the attack with killer croc, then the exhausting of the titans would be chained to the attack and then exhausting the roy harper for the second effect would be the last effect on the chain. correct?
Also i was reading through the Comprehensive rules and it states in rule 505.1c that if an effect targets, the target must be a legal target. 508.2d that the effect resolves at resolution.
that being said, since roy harper's second effect is the first link of the chain, then his attack would be a 4 and make killer croc an illegal target. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or seem to be contesting you information. I am a judge at a local tournament and some of the players dont believe what i am saying since i really cant understand it either. I mean is there something i am missing.
If effects do not resolve until the requirements are met, then why can a player not play a card such as finishing move and target a character before it is stunned?
 
A target is declared as part of putting an effect on the chain. The target must be legal at two times: First when announcing the effect, and second when the effect resolves. If the first check isn't legal, then the effect may not be played in the first place (the case of Finishing Move). If the second check fails, the effect is negated by game rules.

In the situation with Roy Harper, the common practice is to exhaust a TT character to put the effect on the chain. Let that effect resolve and THEN activate Roy Harper. This is not like Yu-Gi-Oh, where when both players don't add anything further the chain resolves to completion. When both players pass, only the last effect that was put on the chain resolves. Then the primary player may add an effect or pass to the opponent. If the opponent also passes, the next effect on the chain resolves.

The situation with Roy Harper, again, though, is a situation where his activation is not made until Roy Harper's ATK is high enough. This is possible because of the way the chain works. Killer Croc does not get an ATK increase due to his own effect until both players pass when Killer Croc's effect is at the top of the chain. The TT player chooses not to pass and instead exhausts a character for Roy's effect. Both players pass and Roy gets +2 ATK. Again, both players need to pass to allow Killer Croc's effect to resolve, but the TT player once again chooses not to and exhausts a TT for +2 ATK and lets that resolve. This occurs until Roy Harper's ATK is high enough to stun Killer Croc (Greater than 8 in this case). This is also done before Killer Croc's effect has resolved. Roy Harper activates when Roy Harper's ATK is 10. Roy Harper's ATK is checked via Killer Croc's and find's KC's ATK is less than Roy Harper's. The effect is legal and is put on the chain. When the effect resolves, Roy Harper's ATK is again checked and is found to be higher than KC's. Killer Croc stuns.
 
Yes, that is what I meant. See in the situation you explained, I can see the effect working. But the player in Question did not allow each exhaust to resolve he simple added another exhaust to the chain. After i declared my attack, he exhaust a TT, I passed, He exhausted a TT, I passed, He exhausted a TT, I passed, He exhausted a TT, I passed then he exhausted Roy Harper for the second effect, I passed then he Passed. So the way he did that would not work since Roy harpers second effect would resolve since we both passed and fail. But since he chained everything with out allowing the previous exhausted TT to resolve, he couldnt activate Roy Harper to begin with.
See i understand the way you are explaining, But i see i should have explained the situation better. I apologize for the confusion it was entirely my fault
 
The only way you would be allowed to pass after your opponent exhausted a TT character would be if your opponent passed first. When your opponent puts an effect on the chain, your opponent keeps priority. In the way that you described:

he exhaust a TT, I passed,
Click to expand...

you could only pass if he passed first. (this is different from when effects resolve. When an effect resolves, the primary player (you in this case) would get priority.) The way you describe it, Roy Harper will end with +8 ATK before activating (Roy at 12 ATK is enough to take down Croc).

The other possibility is that you were playing slightly wrong and your opponent did as you claim (in which case, you would not pass until your opponent had exhausted his 4 TT characters). If your opponent were to try to activate Roy Harper before letting the TT effect resolve, it would be an illegal activation and Roy Harper would stay ready. However, your opponent could just wait for the ATK increase effects to all resolve and then activate Roy Harper. In both cases, Croc is getting stunned.

In essence, unless your opponent is extremely careless, there is very little you could do to stop the stunning of Killer Croc.
 
okay this is exactly how it all went down.

I declared my attack with killer Croc
My opponent then exhaust 4 teen titans and then exhausted row harper(i actually never got a chance to pass, but i took it as such since i had nothing to chain anyway)then he gave me priority. I had nothing and passed back to him. he then passed.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but wouldnt Roy harper then try to resolve and find no legal target.

I am not really concerned with killer croc stunning, that is a dead matter. but i am expected to teach the younger players the mechanics of the game, which is hard when apparently dont understand them myself.
 
No. Roy Harper was illegally activated, and so would remain ready and the resource not be KO'd. Roy Harper's effect would never go on the chain and so would never try to resolve.

When an effect requires a target and the target is found not legal before the effect goes on the chain (such as Roy Harper attempting to activate when Roy Harper's ATK is less than or equal to its target), the effect doesn't go on the chain, costs are not paid and play proceeds as normal.

So, if I state I am going to activate Roy Harper against your Killer Croc. As part of checking targets (note, this is before I pay costs), the game sees Roy Harper is less than my target and doesn't allow the effect on the chain. Roy Harper stays ready.

Think of it similar (but not exactly the same as) trying to attack a character and the attack is made illegal before you exhaust for the attack. The proposed attacker remains ready, etc. The game doesn't even try to finish the attack. It's not legal.
 
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