Contact fusion mechanic

D

Dr Sin

New Member
Hi. I was searching for a good answer to why face-down GBs can be used to contact fuse and Test Tiger's effect can't target a face-down GB and found the same discussion here in an old thread.
Also, I was discussing it in another forum and someone said that return GBs to the deck is a cost to contact fuse. I said that if I could find some proof that it's true it would be a convincing argument but it turns out that the consensus is it's not a cost.
So can I assume that contact fusion is a totally unique mechanic in the game and has its own rules?

Thanks in advance
 
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http://metagame.com/yugioh.aspx?tabid=33&ArticleId=9634

That website will come in handy. However, it doesn't specifically say why face-down monsters can be used in a Contact Fusion, which is what you asked. But a quick consideration of the process and Test Tiger's effect might help.

Test Tiger's effect really should say "face-up", because that's what it does. I'm afraid there's nothing for it but to remember that it can only target a face-up monster. Blame whoever does the translations for that (I believe it's Konami, since I remember USE never being happy with them for the shoddy translations).

A Contact Fusion is a kind of Special Summon (note that it is not a Fusion Summon). It's much like a Tribute Summon, except the cards go to and come from different places. It doesn't use the chain, so there's no cost and effect in the literal sense of the word. However, if you attempt to Contact Fusion something and the opponent negates the Summon, then you'll still lose the sent monsters (just like you lose the Tributes if a Tribute Summon is negated). In this sense, it's sort of like a cost and effect, but remember that this is just an analogy and is not literal.

There's no real explanation as to why face-down monsters can be used in a Contact Fusion. It just is that way. Contact Fusion is another (new) kind of Special Summon, yet Konami in all its wisdom has decided not to make it a proper game mechanic. (Bear in mind that Konami doesn't seem to be able to organise this card game in any way, and is often badgered by UDE - a company that can deal with card games - to sort themselves out.) Blame Konami for this as well.

So actually, this post isn't definite in any sense of the word. All I've told you is that an effect is worded incorrectly, and that a required game mechanic isn't yet written down. Sorry. You'll just have to accept, as we do, that it just is the way it is.
 
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Thanks a lot Maruno. That was pretty informative. I was expecting something like this, unfortunately.
I wonder if it's so hard to post on the official site 20-30 lines explaining things like this, that follows no previous pattern. Specially in this case, since GB was so popular (it fell a bit, but it's not dead).

But hey, why would UDE care?

Either way, thanks to spend your time explaining so well and giving some insight about why it's like this too.

I've really appreciated it.
 
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As I recall, UDE are the good guys. It's essentially Konami's game, so they call all the shots, and they really don't like messing around with the mess as it currently is, despite UDE's constant badgering to try to get them to sort themselves out. UDE does lots of work trying to get this game into shape, and trying to have the card texts say what they mean, but Konami just go for the direct translations and smeg to UDE's suggestions.

UDE can't invent the Contact Fusion mechanic until Konami says they can, and Konami sucks. Essentially.

At least, that's how I understand it.

UDE are stuck writing articles such as the one I linked to, that help explain how cards work, and also running the Judges' List. It's all strictly unofficial, but it's the best UDE can do.
 
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I think "Contact Fusion" was originally meant to be a Neos/Neo-Spacian only term (storyline-wise), but then people started unofficially applying it to other Fusion Monsters.
 
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It's allegedly used to describe any proper Summoning of a Fusion Monster that isn't "Fusion Summon using Polymerization or similar". By "proper" I mean that the Fusion Monster can then be Reborn after it's been Summoned by this method.

This currently applies to Elemental Hero Neos fusions, Gladiator Beast fusions and the VWXYZ fusions. The alphabet monsters work differently to the other two groups, but apparently Contact Fusion includes them in its definition.

I can certainly see how it was originally a special and trademark feature of Elemental Hero Neos. But I think we can do without all that anime worship.
 
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Maruno said:
As I recall, UDE are the good guys. It's essentially Konami's game, so they call all the shots, and they really don't like messing around with the mess as it currently is, despite UDE's constant badgering to try to get them to sort themselves out. UDE does lots of work trying to get this game into shape, and trying to have the card texts say what they mean, but Konami just go for the direct translations and smeg to UDE's suggestions.

UDE can't invent the Contact Fusion mechanic until Konami says they can, and Konami sucks. Essentially.

At least, that's how I understand it.

UDE are stuck writing articles such as the one I linked to, that help explain how cards work, and also running the Judges' List. It's all strictly unofficial, but it's the best UDE can do.
Click to expand...

I see. Thanks for pointing that out. And sorry UDE (well, not that much sorry...:D)
 
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Wait, so it was only the main page that was down, and not the whole forum? :/

You can Contact Fuse with face-down Fusion-Material Monsters since returning them to deck (etc) is a cost. In general, you can pay costs with face-down cards, unless the card says otherwise (like how you can use "Crush Card Virus" by Tributing a face-down monster).
 
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Nooooo! There are no costs and effects in Summons. They're Summons, just that. It may be convenient to compare effects and Summons, but they actually are different, so don't call the first part of Summons costs.


Test Tiger
Effect Monster (Beast / EARTH / 3 Stars / ATK 600 / DEF 300)
If you control a "Gladiator Beast" monster, you can Special Summon this card. You can Tribute this card to return 1 "Gladiator Beast" monster you control to the Deck, and then Special Summon 1 "Gladiator Beast" from your Deck. The Special Summoned monster is treated as if it was Special Summoned by the effect of a "Gladiator Beast".
Click to expand...
Now, Test Tiger wants to do something to a "Gladiator Beast" monster here. The problem is, face-down cards on the field are only "face-down card"s - they have no names. You can't check the name until you do something to it (other than target it, of course), such as Tributing it or sending it to the Deck or whatever. Basically, if you would target a face-down monster, you'd have to trust that it's a "Gladiator Beast" monster because there's no way to check until resolution. If it turned out not to be a "Gladiator Beast" monster after all, it's an illegal activation, but there's been a chance to chain to the effect already (which may have happened multiple times). That means you'd have to rewind all those chained effects, and that's a huge nuisance. In other words, it's not allowed, therefore face-down monsters cannot be targeted by Test Tiger.

Summons (such as Contact Summons), however, Tribute the monsters during the first part of the Summon (the "cost" of it if you must use incorrect terminology), so you can check what monster it is at the start of the Summon. If it turns out to be the wrong monster, there's practically nothing to rewind, so it's allowed.



In short, if you need a specific monster for something, you can use one that's face-down as long as you do something to it during the cost or the first part of the Summon (which is always the case for Summons). If you only need to target that specific monster during the cost (or do nothing about it), then it can't be face-down.



So after nearly a month, it seems I could answer the question after all. :D
 
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Either Summons got revamped while I wasn't looking, or Curtis is being careless with his words. He could simply be explaining that the sending of the monsters is done before any possible chaining to negate the Summon, meaning the sent monsters are non-refundable, and the word "cost" is most easy to understand (even though it is technically the wrong word to use).

I know Summons and effects are similar in some respects (both having a first, non-refundable part and then a second negatable part), but are different in others (uses the chain or not). While it may be simple to compare one with the other, it's not strictly accurate - it's like the ball-on-a-rubber-sheet model of gravity that needs gravity outside of the model in order to make the "gravity" on the sheet work. I'm under the impression that "cost" is something only card effects have, and that Tributes or other such stuff needed for Summons has no name (they're just called Tributes, or perhaps the Summoning requirements).

At least, that's how I understand it. Can anyone prove me otherwise?
 
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*flips through rulings*

Dark Grepher
Discarding 1 Level 5 or higher DARK monster to Special Summon "Dark Grepher" is a cost.

Infernal Incinerator
Discarding your hand is a cost to Normal Summon or Set this card. It will not activate the effect of a card like “Goldd, Wu-Lord of Dark World”.

Rainbow Dark Dragon
Removing from play all other DARK monsters you control and in your Graveyard is a cost.

Looks like there's a cost with Summons.
 
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