Cosmic Horror Gangi'el

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CraniumX

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I'm surprised this question hasn't been asked yet, it came up a few times at the pre-release Saturday, and maybe noone just thought much about it until now.

The card states "Once per turn you can place 1 A-counter on a monster on your opponent's side of the field." Alien Grey states to place a counter on a face-up monster, however. What makes this so important is Brainwashing Beam, which steals a monster with an A-Counter on it.

Given what we know about face-down monsters and targetting with continuous effects though, is Gangi'el's text correct, and you can indeed place a counter on a face-down monster, then possibly steal it with Brainwashing Beam, similar to what you could do wiht Change of Heart? Or would it only be able to place the counter on a face-up creature?
 
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They also left out words in "Destiny Hero - Double Dude"s effect. The rulings say that his effect activates only in the Graveyard, but the effect says nothing about being destroyed and sent to the Graveyard. It should work even if "Macro Cosmos" is on the field the way it's worded, but the rulings say it's doesn't. Oh well.

As for "Cosmic Horror Gangi'el", he's obviously an "Alien" monster, but he doesn't have "Alien" in his card name, so you can't use cards like "Crop Circles" to Special Summon him. I think this is another oversight. "Axe of Despair" can be an "Archfiend" card, but "Cosmic Horror Gangi'el" isn't an "Alien" monster. I love the new wording changes...
 
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So I suppose the same would go for Flying Saucer Muusik'i, then? Maybe they just didn't want those particular cards to be easier to Summon (i.e. with Crop Circles, etc.). Although Crop Circles and Flying Saucer Muusik'i would fit perfectly...
 
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harsh, maybe the game should have actually use a sub-type "Alien" instead of having the name "alien" in the creatures name.

would kind of make sence becuase ninken dog is a ninja if you translate the name. lol but we all know its not a ninja, because it isnt like Yae or Grand Master.
 
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Maruno said:
You can't put counters on face-down monsters, not even if they're A-Counters.
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I've been looking for a ruling precedent for this, can anyone show it to me?

I have been unable to find a ruling that says that counters in general may not be placed on face down cards, only rulings that pertain to spell counters etc. which have a totally different meaning to being placed on cards.
 
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There certainly is reasonable doubt here. Every monster that has the ability to use counters previously is what we're refering to. The only other references we have are Apprentice Magician which places, "1 Spell Counter on a face-up card on the field that you can put a Spell Counter on." That states that the card already needs to have the ability to hold a counter (so it needs to be face up to know this) The same holds true for Pitch-Black Power Stone.

Cosmic Horror Gangi'el doesn't state anything about a monster needing to be able to "hold" a counter. We know that it is indeed a monster the counter is being placed on....we really have no prior reference to this card to compare it to.
 
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And this is exactly what the "new wording" was for. Too eliminate the "obvious". Why should we be trying to figure out if you can put a Counter on a face-down card, when we have ONLY ever been able to place a Counter of any type, on a face-up card??!!!

There is too much thought being put into this simple Mechanic.

If they changed Monster Reborn to say, "Select 1 card from you or your opponent's Graveyard and Special Summon it to your side of the field", would you be trying to return a Spell or Trap Card over the obvious monster that SHOULD be selected? And, if there were no monsters in either player's Graveyard, would the argument then be that it only said "card" on the text, and again, we all know that it only applies to monsters....
 
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"Logic" would have it that you couldn't put a counter on a face down monster....but I stopped assuming and trusting in logic as it concerns the game of Yugioh a long time ago after doing so made a fool out of me too many times.
 
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John Danker said:
"Logic" would have it that you couldn't put a counter on a face down monster....but I stopped assuming and trusting in logic as it concerns the game of Yugioh a long time ago after doing so made a fool out of me too many times.
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I understand the "cautious" mood here, but when you read the disclaimer they put out prior to the release of PotD, one is lead to believe that if a Mechanic sounds similar to something we have already been familiar with, it was shortened, since it was only redundant to state that a "Direct Attack to your opponent" was "Direct Damage to your opponents life points", so one would assume that "Place a A-Counter on your opponents monster" would be the same as "Place a A-Counter on a face-up monster on your opponents side of the field."
 
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The problem is that cards from this same set have the text that was omitted from "Cosmic Horror Gangi'el"s effect. "Alien Gray" says "face-up", "Gangi'el" does not.
 
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Kyhotae said:
The problem is that cards from this same set have the text that was omitted from "Cosmic Horror Gangi'el"s effect. "Alien Gray" says "face-up", "Gangi'el" does not.
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Ummm, that's because you are lowering the Monsters Stat's by the Counter. What stat's are you lowering on a face-down monster, that when flipped face-up, would no longer HAVE a A-Counter???

The same should apply to the monster being face-down for Cosmic Horror's effect. You can't do it if its face-down.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
Ummm, that's because you are lowering the Monsters Stat's by the Counter. What stat's are you lowering on a face-down monster, that when flipped face-up, would no longer HAVE a A-Counter???

The same should apply to the monster being face-down for Cosmic Horror's effect. You can't do it if its face-down.
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Hey. You're preaching to the choir, here. I didn't say that I think you can put counters on face-down cards. I just said the that confusion comes in when you look at at least one other "Alien" card in the same set.

Alien Grey said:
FLIP: Place 1 A-Counter on 1 face-up monster on your opponent's side of the field...
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Cosmic Horror Gangi'el said:
Once per turn, you can place 1 A-Counter on a monster on your opponent's side of the field...
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You said that the new wording was supposed to eliminate redundant text, but both of these cards are from the same set that's supposed to have the new wording. One has it, one doesn't. It's either a screw up, or not part of the "new wording" issue. Either way, it's obviously causing confusion. Which was my point.
 
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It's definitely confusing, for multiple reasons. One key one being the "key" rule that unless otherwise specified, the rules on a card overrule the regular rules.

What's to say you can't put the A-counters from him onto a face-down monster? It IS a monster, we don't know what monster, but we know it IS a monster, being in the monster zone. Even if it were a face-down spell or trap by something like Magical Hats, those are monsters for that battle phase, because they're in the monster card zone. Myself, I don't really see where from the wording, you can't put the counters on a face-down monster, and the judges at the event actually agreed with that. It wasn't even myself that brought it up, but a mid-30s/40s father of a young child playing in the event, and he was playing as well, and noticed that. I gave thought to the fact that normally you can't do much to face down creatures, but it said nothing against it, unlike other cards in the set.

I can see it being used in conjunction with Brainwashing Beam to steal really good flip effect monsters if you can, which is one of the main reasons I brought it up. Someone, somewhere, is going to try that, and it can make or break a whole duel.
 
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CraniumX said:
It's definitely confusing, for multiple reasons. One key one being the "key" rule that unless otherwise specified, the rules on a card overrule the regular rules.

What's to say you can't put the A-counters from him onto a face-down monster? It IS a monster, we don't know what monster, but we know it IS a monster, being in the monster zone. Even if it were a face-down spell or trap by something like Magical Hats, those are monsters for that battle phase, because they're in the monster card zone. Myself, I don't really see where from the wording, you can't put the counters on a face-down monster, and the judges at the event actually agreed with that. It wasn't even myself that brought it up, but a mid-30s/40s father of a young child playing in the event, and he was playing as well, and noticed that. I gave thought to the fact that normally you can't do much to face down creatures, but it said nothing against it, unlike other cards in the set.

I can see it being used in conjunction with Brainwashing Beam to steal really good flip effect monsters if you can, which is one of the main reasons I brought it up. Someone, somewhere, is going to try that, and it can make or break a whole duel.
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And this is one of those situations where "if it doesnt say you can't, that doesn't mean you can." Chaos Sorcerer doesnt say you can't Normal Summon him, but why do we know we can't? I had the same argument over Celestial Transformation on another website, until the actual Official Ruling agreed with me.

In the absense of an Official Ruling, common sense has to also be a part of reading the card's text and interpreting a coherent ruling that will live long after the event you made the ruling on. Many people belong to Forum's, and will surely pass that bit of info onto their Sites whenever the question comes up. "At the Tourney I was at, this Judge ruled it this way....", and before you know it, that is how it is.

Erring on the side of caution is always a recommended course of action. To give an effect a Broken characteristic, only to find out that it isnt that great can be deflating. That's what I did with Sonic Shooter (but not at an Event, just in a scenario), and yet EVERYONE here seemed to see how "clearly" the text was. Why does this text all of a sudden become nice and muddy??
 
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masterwoo0 said:
...That's what I did with Sonic Shooter (but not at an Event, just in a scenario), and yet EVERYONE here seemed to see how "clearly" the text was...
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I'm fine with the ruling of Sonic Shooter. I still don't agree with the correctness of the grammar however. It is quite unbecoming... ;)
 
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