Cross Counter FET-EN049

[Fiction]

Cross Counter FET-EN049
If the DEF of an attacked Defense Position monster is higher than the ATK of your opponent's attacking monster, the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. Destroy the attacking monster after damage calculation.


Stone Statue of the Aztecs AST-EN014
Any Battle Damage your opponent takes when he/she attacks this monster is doubled.

My question, both of these cards have effects that double the battle damage. So the situation i have in mind is a Fairy Box face up on the field. Opponent declares an attack on my face down Stone Statue. The I call the flip correctly reducing the monsters attack to 0. My Stone Statue is flipped face up, and activate my face down Cross Counter. I know that my opponent would take 4000 if i only have a Stone Statue, but with Cross Counter activated would my opponent take 8000 points of damage, (2000 x 2) x 2=8000.

I know cards that have similar effects only one will resolve, Fairy Meteor Crush on a Spear Dragon. Just wanted to know if anyone had any opinions on this one.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

So are you saying that there will be no damage whatsoever? =/ Sounds like a pretty worthless combo then if their isn't any damage involved. I could see it working with Total Defense Shogun and Blast Magician under Chorus of Santuary though. =/ Still then that's kind of pointless.

But the thing I thought about Megamorph was that it doubles the original attack and then wouldn't additional ones just add the double attack amount to it?

Do the math. You will still come through with 4000 damage.

The point pointed out is when the opponent takes 4000 damage, Cross Counter won't multiply that same 4000 x Doubled = X.

Also, they won't "stack" or be placed on a chain together because both effects only will have 1 shot to deal Doubled damage, during the 1 and only damage calculation.

As for the Megamorph deliemna, it doubles the "original" atk value of 1 monster, these as well don't stack. Multiple Axe of Despairs stack, because the 1000 in increased ATK is added to the "current" attack.

 

[Digital Jedi]

The whole problem I have, as I stated before, is that I have never, ever heard in any rule book, or even inferred in the official rulling that a lingering effect and a continuous effect don't resolve during the Damage Step. I can't see from where this logic is originating. Everything I have learned from this game points to the Battle Damage doubling AND stacking. It makes no sense that because there is one Damege Step that there is only resolution of ONE effect, continuous or otherwise

As far as Megamorph goes, it's trying to double the Original ATK therefore it is stacking and they are resolving in order. But each Megamorph, no matter how many are equiped to the monster, are all reseting the ATK to DOUBLE THE BASE. So if its a 1000 ATK monster equiped with three Megamorphs, the ATK doubles for each one, resolves for each one, and each one puts it right back at 2000.

ANd if theres only one effect per Damage Step that resolves, how is it that my Limiters double and stack? And what to say about Covering Fire which can ONLY be activated in the Damage Step?

 

[removefromp]

I think they are saying that you can only take damage once during damage calculation. So this is a whole different situation than limiter removal because limiter removal increases the ATK of the monster be4 damage is calculated; therefore limiter removals' effects "stack" and then damage is calculated by comparing the 2 monsters' ATK. In the case of stone statue and cross though, their effect happen during damage calculation. Therefore, only 4000 damage will be inflicted to your opponent because after one of their effects resolve, damamge calculation is over.

I hope I got it right.

Thanks for reading my stupid opinion.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

ANd if theres only one effect per Damage Step that resolves, how is it that my Limiters double and stack? And what to say about Covering Fire which can ONLY be activated in the Damage Step?

The effects of Stone Statue and Cross Counter take effect in Damage "Caluculation" not the Damage "Step"... Covering Fire takes place in the Damage Step

As for Limiter Removal, it does stack because it doubles the "current" attack, that's the keyword "current"

Player A: decalres an attack with Kinetic Soldier against bLs-EoTb
Nothing is played in response

(Damage Step)
Player A: activates Limiter Removal
Player B does not respond
Player A: chains another Limiter Removal
Player B does not respond
Player A: chains another Limiter Removal
Nothing is then played in response
Resolve steps backwards
Step 3: Limiter R. doubles (current atk 1350 x 2 = 2700)
Step 2: Limiter R. doubles (current atk 2700 x 2 = 5400)
Step 1: Limiter R. doubles (currect atk 5400 x 2 = 10,800)
(Kinetic Soldier now has 10,800 atk value)
During Damage Calculation, Kinetic Soldier also gains a boost of 2000 when attacking a Warrior-type monster, with an attack total of:
12,800 vs 3000

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

I think they are saying that you can only take damage once during damage calculation. So this is a whole different situation than limiter removal because limiter removal increases the ATK of the monster be4 damage is calculated; therefore limiter removals' effects "stack" and then damage is calculated by comparing the 2 monsters' ATK. In the case of stone statue and cross though, their effect happen during damage calculation. Therefore, only 4000 damage will be inflicted to your opponent because after one of their effects resolve, damamge calculation is over.

Yes! That's exactly what were trying to say.

You only take damage "once" so Damage Calculation is only calculated "once". 1 of the 2 effects between Cross Counter and Stone Statue will have there effects take place during that one and only Damage Calculation step.

 

[Digital Jedi]

You only take damage "once" so Damage Calculation is only calculated "once". 1 of the 2 effects between Cross Counter and Stone Statue will have there effects take place during that one and only Damage Calculation step.

Okay, I'll say this and then I'l leave it alone so it don't seem like I'm arguing (because I'm not. I simply don't understand.)

If only one of the two effects can take place during Damage Calculation then who decides which effect to resolve? Remember, one of those effects has the additional effect of destroying a monster.

Aside from that, I do not see where the concept that only one effect can take place during damage calculation comes from. That is the big question. Since my comparisons were inacurate, could someone please give me an apropriate comparison that could explain where this line of reasoning comes from? I've sincerly tried and cannot find similar example.

 

[StRiKe_NiNjA]

Okay, I'll say this and then I'l leave it alone so it don't seem like I'm arguing (because I'm not. I simply don't understand.)

If only one of the two effects can take place during Damage Calculation then who decides which effect to resolve? Remember, one of those effects has the additional effect of destroying a monster.

Aside from that, I do not see where the concept that only one effect can take place during damage calculation comes from. That is the big question. Since my comparisons were inacurate, could someone please give me an apropriate comparison that could explain where this line of reasoning comes from? I've sincerly tried and cannot find similar example.

I'm not arguing with you, I just enjoy a good debate. Sorry if it seemed my actions was being directed at you. Apology acceptance?

The effects of Stone Statue of the Aztechs will take place as should during Damage Calculation first, compare and do damage. The effect of Cross Counter where it double the damage will not take place since the Damage is calculated only once.

The effect of Cross Counter, where it doubles the damage doesn't need to resolve, all you have to do is meet the condition of having a higher defense than your opponent's attacking monster, and the effect of Cross Counter will trigger at the End of Damage Calculation, destroying the attacking monster.


As for your last part of your reply, I have not said that only 1 effect can take place during Damage Calculation, it's just that since Cross Counter and Stone Statute have the same timing for when there effects trigger, only 1 of them will double the damage.

 

[daivahataka]

Here's my 2cents worth:

Stone Statue of the Aztecs
Card Text
Any Battle Damage your opponent takes when he/she attacks this monster is doubled.

Rulings
The Battle Damage doubled by "Stone Statue of the Aztecs"' effect is still considered Battle Damage (not effect damage).

If "Rod of the Mind's Eye" is equipped to "Stone Statue of the Aztecs", the Battle Damage will be 1000.

The Battle Damage is doubled during damage calculation.

When "Amazoness Swordswoman" (1500 ATK) attacks "Stone Statue of the Aztecs" (2000 DEF), the controller of Stone Statue of the Aztecs takes 1000 Battle Damage.


Cross Counter
Card Text
If the DEF of an attacked Defense Position monster is higher than the ATK of your opponent's attacking monster, the Battle Damage inflicted to your opponent is doubled. Destroy the attacking monster after damage calculation.

Rulings
You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation but after flipping the attacked monster face-up. The "Cross Counter" card is sent to the Graveyard after resolving its effect and destroying the attacking monster.

The effect of "Cross Counter" only applies to the one attack and does not continue for the rest of the turn.

If your opponent's "Amazoness Swords Woman" attacks your Defense Position "Mystical Elf", and you activate "Cross Counter", you (the controller of "Cross Counter" and "Mystical Elf") take 1000 points of damage due to the effect of "Amazoness Swords Woman", and then "Cross Counter" destroys "Amazoness Swords Woman".



Any number of modifications can take place to the Battle Damage during the damage calculation (think of all the modifiers that can be applied via Limiter Removals), there can only be one infliction of Battle Damage but both these effects occur before it's inflicted, and since "The Battle Damage doubled by "Stone Statue of the Aztecs"' effect is still considered Battle Damage (not effect damage)." and neither card mentions the key words original Battle Damage so Cross Counter is still free to further double this recalculated Battle Damage, however since there is no official ruling stating the damage from Cross Counter is still Battle Damage it would be best to have it as the first part of the chain, just to be on the safe side.
Hopefully I've explained my view clearly, what do you think?

 

[Digital Jedi]

I'm not arguing with you, I just enjoy a good debate. Sorry if it seemed my actions was being directed at you. Apology acceptance?

The effects of Stone Statue of the Aztechs will take place as should during Damage Calculation first, compare and do damage. The effect of Cross Counter where it double the damage will not take place since the Damage is calculated only once.

The effect of Cross Counter, where it doubles the damage doesn't need to resolve, all you have to do is meet the condition of having a higher defense than your opponent's attacking monster, and the effect of Cross Counter will trigger at the End of Damage Calculation, destroying the attacking monster.


As for your last part of your reply, I have not said that only 1 effect can take place during Damage Calculation, it's just that since Cross Counter and Stone Statute have the same timing for when there effects trigger, only 1 of them will double the damage.

Oh no, thats not it at all, I just felt like I was taking on an argumentative tone and didn't want to come across as difficult. No need for apologies . I still diagree. But I will consider what you've said and bring it up at the shop next Saturday to see where I'm loosing ground . Too me, the two effects are all part of the same Damage Calculation. Like two modifiers modifieing ATK or DEF activated in or before the Damage Step. I can't think of another situation where the Damage is Calculated exactly the same for two different effects just beacause they do the same thing. They should stack. But . . . aw man . . . I said I'd leave it alone for now, didn't I? (sigh) I'm sleepy. Actually, StRiKe_NiNjA, I enjoy debate too. Waaaay too much.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Rulings
You activate "Cross Counter" before damage calculation

How can you inflict battle damage before it is calculated?

You can't!

Cross Counter sets up a condition where the battle damage will be doubled, Stone Statue fo the Aztecs has a continuous effect where the damage will be doubled. They are concurrent effects; not effects in a chain.

let's try some more mathematics: (let the battle damge 'B' be 1000)

Stone Statue
2 x B
Cross Counter
2 x B

Now if we put them together we get either:
(2 x B)(2 x B) = 4 x b^2 =
4,000,000

or we get:
(2 x B)+(2 x B) = 4 x B
Hold on a sec, neither effect is saying 4 times, if we did that you can see that one effect wouldn't be doubling battle damage, but rahter doubling the modifier 2 x(2 x)= 4 x. Both cards say double the battle damage, not the modifier.

 

[novastar]

How can you inflict battle damage before it is calculated?

You can't!

Cross Counter sets up a condition where the battle damage will be doubled, Stone Statue fo the Aztecs has a continuous effect where the damage will be doubled. They are concurrent effects; not effects in a chain.

let's try some more mathematics: (let the battle damge 'B' be 1000)

Stone Statue
2 x B
Cross Counter
2 x B

Now if we put them together we get either:
(2 x B)(2 x B) = 2^2 + 4B + B^2
which will equal 1,004,004

or we get:
(2 x B)+(2 x B) = 4 x B
Hold on a sec, neither effect is saying 4 time, if we did that you can see that one effect wouldn't be doubling battle damage, but rahter doubling the modifier 2 x(2 x)= 4 x. Both cards say double the battle damage, not the modifier.

Finally... this is correct.

A good comparison to use is Bad Reaction to Simochi.

When you have 2 in play, they essentially are changing/altering the same event concurrently or simultaniously, and as a result, you only effectively get one change from Life Point gain to Effect Damage.

When you have 2 Continuous Effects (or lingering conditions if you like) that change/alter the exactly the same event as these 2 effects do, at exactly the same time... they effectively become the same event.

They do not create 2 instances of the same event.

 

[skey23]

My thinking is along the same lines as Digital Jedi. It just doesn't seem right that one of the effects would 'dissapear' in essence.

But I think I just got unintentional help:

or we get:
(2 x B)+(2 x B) = 4 x B
Hold on a sec, neither effect is saying 4 time, if we did that you can see that one effect wouldn't be doubling battle damage, but rahter doubling the modifier 2 x(2 x)= 4 x. Both cards say double the battle damage, not the modifier.

So in the ORIGINAL scenario, the battle damage was 2000 due to the effect of 'Fairy Box'.

So B = 2000...hmmmm...let's see...what would the answer be???

Ooh! ooh! ooh!..I know! I know! 4 x 2 = 8, so 4 x 2000 = 8000.

Finally... this is correct.

See! Even Novastar agrees!

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Reread the paragraph and don't quote out of context. 4 x B is impossible.

 

[skey23]

Reread the paragraph and don't quote out of context. 4 x B is impossible.

There's no need to get snooty.
I was being silly.
I admittedly misunderstood what you were saying.

Hold on a sec, neither effect is saying 4 times.

Nobody said it did. Everybody seems to understand exactly what you put (or at least I do), that 'Stone Statue' = 2 x B and 'Cross Counter' = 2 x B. And the equation I quoted supported the idea the effects stack.
(2xB)+(2xB)=4xB.

The issue in question is do they stack.

Both cards say double the battle damage, not the modifier.

There is no modifier, just the damage. Digital Jedi made a very good explaination about his reasoning, that I agree with.

Too me, the two effects are all part of the same Damage Calculation. LIKE two modifiers modifieing ATK or DEF activated in or before the Damage Step. I can't think of another situation where the Damage is Calculated exactly the same for two different effects just beacause they do the same thing. They should stack.

A good comparison to use is Bad Reaction to Simochi.

That was a VERY good thing to use as comparison. The ruling clearly states that multiple copies of this card DO NOT STACK. It's two effects doing the same thing at the same time, but they don't stack.

 

[Digital Jedi]

How can you inflict battle damage before it is calculated?

You can't!

Cross Counter sets up a condition where the battle damage will be doubled, Stone Statue fo the Aztecs has a continuous effect where the damage will be doubled. They are concurrent effects; not effects in a chain.

let's try some more mathematics: (let the battle damge 'B' be 1000)

Stone Statue
2 x B
Cross Counter
2 x B

Now if we put them together we get either:
(2 x B)(2 x B) = 2^2 + 4B + B^2
which will equal 1,004,004

or we get:
(2 x B)+(2 x B) = 4 x B
Hold on a sec, neither effect is saying 4 times, if we did that you can see that one effect wouldn't be doubling battle damage, but rahter doubling the modifier 2 x(2 x)= 4 x. Both cards say double the battle damage, not the modifier.

LOL. This just got way more confusing for me. I was doing okay unti DaGuyWitBluGlasses started using equations! What am I? A mathemagician!

But to be serious, I didn't understand the equation but I think I understand the meaning behind the equation. Your saying that the one modifier checks the Battle Damage (1000 for example), doubles it (2000), the other modifier checks the Battle Damage (1000), doubles it again (2000) with the same result (2000).

Am I correct on that assesment?

I think I should make clear my reaonings behind why I think it's more than that. Say your ojama token is forced to ATK my Defence Position Stone Statue (via Staunch Defender or someting like that)

In your post you use an equation "(2 x B)+(2 x B) = 4 x B" and then say: "neither effect is saying 4 times." Actualy, I agree. I never believed that the two seperate effects quadrupled the Damaged (though now I'm realizing I probably didn't say that) In actuality, I'm making an assumption about Cross Counter that Daivahataka brought up, I'm presuming that the doubled Battle damage from is indeed, like the Statue, Battle Damage. I think this next point is the fundemental difference in our thinking.

The token smacks into the Statue for 2000 Battle Damage. The Statues effect automaticaly checks the amount of damage and doubles it to 4000. Heres where we diifer in thinking. I believe the lingering modifier from Cross Counter now checks the Battle Damage (after the Statue has doubled it.) which is now 4000 and Doubles it to 8000. Rather than checking the modifier Cross Counter would check the modified Battle Damage. (Of course I'm also just presuming the Statue goes of first, it could happen the other way around)

I realise your saying that Damage Calulation only occurs once, and I dont dispute that. But I would think that the multiple modifiers cause Calculation in succesion. "2 x(2 x)= 4 x" if I understand it right wouldn't be the way I'd put it. My equation (gulp ), at risk of embarrasing myself, would be something like:
B x 2 = C x 2 = D.

The key being that we come come to C first and then that determins D.

Whew! My head hurts. I think I'll chang my screen name to Dark Mathemagician of Chaos!

 

[skey23]

Man, Digital Jedi has a much better way with words than I do.

 

[Raigekick]

Opinion Table

This thread has been controversial enough to warrant a poll. So far, this is where we are at:

. Will the effect of "Cross Counter" and "Stone Statue of the Aztecs" Stack? .
. . . . . . . . . . as of March 4, 2005, 1:45 pm . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

StRiKe_NiNjA . . . . . . . . No
Raigekick. . . . . . . . . . No
skey23 . . . . . . . . . . . Yes
DaGuyWitBluGlasses . . . . . No
Maruno . . . . . . . . . . . No
Digital Jedi . . . . . . . . Yes
Tkwiget. . . . . . . . . . . Yes
PsychoDemon. . . . . . . . . Yes
removefromp. . . . . . . . . No
daivahataka. . . . . . . . . No
novastar . . . . . . . . . . No
chaosruler . . . . . . . . . No
CraniumX . . . . . . . . . . No
removefromp. . . . . . . . . No


Each opinion counts on this thread, so don't feel left out.

 

[skey23]

Raigekick's title should be the 'Poll Master'...lol

 

[novastar]

...the Dark Mathemagician of Chaos!...

lol, now that's clever...

Honestly, this is not about equations. If you understand how the effects work from a mechanical point of view, you will understand "why" they do not stack.

Continuous Effects that stack are generally the kind that actually react to an event occuring.

For example:

Coffin Seller
"Each time your opponent's Monster Cards are sent to the Graveyard, inflict 300 points of Direct Damage to your opponent's Life Points."

This effect stacks because both are reacting to the same event, however neither of them is actually modifying the event itself. So they stack on top of each other.

Effects such as Cross Counter and Statue are infact "modifying" the exact same event, they are continuous (resolve with no chaining) so the the Battle Damage is modified once, even though technically 2 effects are at work here.

Another decent example to use would be 2 Fairy Meteor Crush's equipped to the same monster, or 1 equipped to Spear Dragon. They are doing exactly the same thing, and modifying the same event, it essentially becomes 1 event, and Battle Damage is only inflicted once.

hope that helps

 

[chaosruler]

I don't think that they will stack, but heck, we may even have to get a KSS on this (KSS=Konami said so), also, Strike Ninja, I love your Kinetic Soldier example (my avatar)

lol
-chaosruler