Curse of Anubis
- Thread starter Sarothias
- Start date
daivahataka said:
Also lets understand that the first effect of Cross Counter isn't applied until Battle Damage is applied, and the second effect ocrrs directly after DC ends.
Both applications occur after ATK/DEF Modifiers are activated and resolved.
It's no secret that the Damage Step is NOT exclusive to ATK/DEF Modifiers only.
daivahataka
Gold Member
But previously the rule of thumb was that they had to either modify stats or be counter traps (hence why Divine Wrath is allowed).novastar said:
**Quite enjoying this debate, stimulating & taxing my brain in an otherwise dull day...
**DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Good point...
I could very well be wrong here. If Mirco Ray can, then most likey Curse of Anubis can too, since the wording is pretty much identical.
Even if i am wrong (which happens all the time) ...the term "become(s) 0" does not seem like a "reduction" to me, it seems like an actual change of text.
"[this_text] becomes [this_text]"
DaGuyWitBluGlasses
New Member
For curse of anubis: I think it might be the first effect that matters only, the second modified stats are jsut a bonus, and not really the principal effect. (seeing that its clearly dependant on the first effect.
It doesn't seem right to be switching monsters positions early in the damage-step
It doesn't seem right to be switching monsters positions early in the damage-step
daivahataka said:But previously the rule of thumb was that they had to either modify stats or be counter traps (hence why Divine Wrath is allowed).
**Quite enjoying this debate, stimulating & taxing my brain in an otherwise dull day...
That is from the Basic Rulebook ...lets all graduate ourselves and understand that there is ALOT more to this than is provided there.
There are a significant amount Traps and Quickplays that can be activated at some point throughout the Damage Step to nullify that "rule of thumb"
The truth of it is, being an ATK/DEF Modifier is only one, of many tickets, to get into the "Damage Step Party Club"...
DaGuyWitBluGlasses said:
Well, honestly... i don't think that an effect being principal is important here.
This is not like Last Turn where you have optional conditions that are not mandatory.
The entire effect of Curse of Anubis is carried out, and to me, is principal.
Switching to DEF doesn't seem like an issue, as by the time you are in Damage Step, the attack (through DC) is going to be carried out. You need to be in ATK position to declare an attack, once the attack becomes legal, Battle Position shouldn't matter.
Very interesting indeed...
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
Raigekick said:
A replay will occur, monster in defense mode can't attack. I'm meaning before the actual "Damage Calculation". I don't believe monster would go bashing each other in Defense Mode lol Kuriboh vs Kuriboh in Defense Mode.
Blast With Chain can be activated in the Damage Step. It follows the basic contitions to be activated in the damage step.
It modifies the ATK value of 1 monster by 500 points increased. Becoming an Equip Spell Card when it resolves doesn't matter at this point.
John Danker
Administrator
novastar said:
Forgive me for branching out on yet another vein
you see? This is what got me wondering about the Dramatic Rescue wording of, " You can only activate this card when a monster on your side of the field that includes "Amazoness" in its card name, or is named "Amazon Archer", is specifically designated as a target by a card. Return the targeted Monster Card to its owner's hand and Special Summon another monster from your hand in face-up Attack or Defense Position.
So as in the thread about targeting....could Dramatic Resuce possibly interupt the activation of another card?
I do so love it that we pick things apart to the core here
That's what helps us all to be better players and judges.StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
John Danker said:Forgive me for branching out on yet another vein
you see? This is what got me wondering about the Dramatic Rescue wording of, " You can only activate this card when a monster on your side of the field that includes "Amazoness" in its card name, or is named "Amazon Archer", is specifically designated as a target by a card. Return the targeted Monster Card to its owner's hand and Special Summon another monster from your hand in face-up Attack or Defense Position.
So as in the thread about targeting....could Dramatic Resuce possibly interupt the activation of another card?
I do so love it that we pick things apart to the core here
Hmmm... I can see your point, it's pretty sharp too... ouch.
Do you mean acivating Dramatic Rescue during the Damage Step when an Amazoness card is targetted by some card?
Dramatic Rescue still isn't able to activate, since it does not follow the basic conditions of being able to activate in the Damage Step.
I still ask why, "Null and Void" ?
John Danker
Administrator
StRiKe_NiNjA said:
It's the reason I was being very paticular in the other thread on targeting about the order of activation. If during a use for say Mass Driver is naming the monster (could be considered targeting no?) to be tributed, then acutally paying the cost (how can you tribute a monster without first naming which one you're going to tribute?) then it's possible that Dramatic Rescue could interupt the paying of the cost. I'm sure there are other examples. I realize I'm splitting hairs here <shrug> As with everything though, eventually we get to that point.
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
John Danker said:
I don't believe that there's an answer out there that will satisfy the answer to that question, in your favor or against you.
All we have is rules.
Mass Driver does not target. In order to inflict 400 points of damage, the monster is first tributed before anything else takes place, this far beyond the point Dramatic Rescue can be activated.
You pay 1000 life points before the "actual card" is "placed and activated" on the field for the effect of Delinquent Duo.
You know a discussion is good when everyone makes completely valid points... starting to make me question some card rules.
Is just attacking an Amazoness making it a target enough to activate Dramatic Rescue, or does it need to actually be specifically targetted by a card "effect"? It's strange that if it does get targetted in the damage step, there would be a rule to not allow Dramatic Rescue to activate in one aspect, but then in the other, damage is already resolving, so switching the creature with another would be like breaking a fundamental game rule by removing a monster with battle damage off the field for a fresh one. I would think that would just end up negating the attack altogether in that aspect. I mean, afterall, it's called "Dramatic Rescue", I would think Zombyra jumping in to take the needle from Lily that was aimed at Amazoness Paladin would be pretty darned dramatic. Talk about a hero emerging...
Is just attacking an Amazoness making it a target enough to activate Dramatic Rescue, or does it need to actually be specifically targetted by a card "effect"? It's strange that if it does get targetted in the damage step, there would be a rule to not allow Dramatic Rescue to activate in one aspect, but then in the other, damage is already resolving, so switching the creature with another would be like breaking a fundamental game rule by removing a monster with battle damage off the field for a fresh one. I would think that would just end up negating the attack altogether in that aspect. I mean, afterall, it's called "Dramatic Rescue", I would think Zombyra jumping in to take the needle from Lily that was aimed at Amazoness Paladin would be pretty darned dramatic. Talk about a hero emerging...
John Danker
Administrator
<holding my head in pain> Yessss.....now brain hurts.....must be.....ICE CREAM HEADACHE!......or Yugioh rulings....which one I can't yet determine!
StRiKe_NiNjA
Dimension Shift Ninja
John Danker said:
Does that mean you don't want this Beer Float? Its strawberry shortcake flavor
Drink up Mr. Danker. It'z my 17th Birthday lolThe text on Dramatic Rescue is erroneous.
It should say:
"You can only activate this card when a monster on your side of the field that includes "Amazoness" in its card name, or is named "Amazon Archer", is specifically designated as a target by a card effect. Return the targeted Monster Card to its owner's hand and Special Summon another monster from your hand in face-up Attack or Defense Position."
John, the Activation Requirement line is specifying that you have to indeed chain Dramatic Rescue to the targeting effect.
You can't cut into an effect activation with another effect activation... so you must wait until the activation is complete in order to respond to an event that occurs during it.
The general events at activation are as follows (in no specific order):
- Effect is placed on the Chain Block
- Modal choices are made
- Target(s) are chosen
- Costs are paid
- The effect is considered played or activated
A "Tribute" during activation is always done as cost, and is not targeting, so Mass Driver does not target a monster.
In general ALL of these events must occur (if applicable) before Dramatic Rescue can be chained.
Example: Skull Lair
- Turn Player has Amazon Archer face-up in Attack Position, and a Set Dramatic Rescue
- Opponent has Skull Lair face-up and active
~ Turn Player declares an attack with Amazon Archer
[OP Chain Link 1] Skull Lair
* First the target is chosen -> Amazon Archer
* Second the cost is paid -> Remove 4 monsters from the Graveyard
* Third Skull Lair's effect is now played
Now you may chain Dramatic Rescue
[TP Chain Link 2] Dramatic Rescue (target -> Amazon Archer)
Hope that helps
It should say:
"You can only activate this card when a monster on your side of the field that includes "Amazoness" in its card name, or is named "Amazon Archer", is specifically designated as a target by a card effect. Return the targeted Monster Card to its owner's hand and Special Summon another monster from your hand in face-up Attack or Defense Position."
John, the Activation Requirement line is specifying that you have to indeed chain Dramatic Rescue to the targeting effect.
You can't cut into an effect activation with another effect activation... so you must wait until the activation is complete in order to respond to an event that occurs during it.
The general events at activation are as follows (in no specific order):
- Effect is placed on the Chain Block
- Modal choices are made
- Target(s) are chosen
- Costs are paid
- The effect is considered played or activated
A "Tribute" during activation is always done as cost, and is not targeting, so Mass Driver does not target a monster.
In general ALL of these events must occur (if applicable) before Dramatic Rescue can be chained.
Example: Skull Lair
- Turn Player has Amazon Archer face-up in Attack Position, and a Set Dramatic Rescue
- Opponent has Skull Lair face-up and active
~ Turn Player declares an attack with Amazon Archer
[OP Chain Link 1] Skull Lair
* First the target is chosen -> Amazon Archer
* Second the cost is paid -> Remove 4 monsters from the Graveyard
* Third Skull Lair's effect is now played
Now you may chain Dramatic Rescue
[TP Chain Link 2] Dramatic Rescue (target -> Amazon Archer)
Hope that helps
John Danker
Administrator
That's what common sense tells me novastar....and I thank you very much for going through the trouble of reminding me of all of those specifics. As with so many cards it could have been worded so much better or at least consistantly with other cards. When I see such a card I always have to question, when I don't it seems later on I find out some weird little loophole....for better or worse! I'm sure we've all stumbled in that way.....errrr....or is that just me?
J
jdos
Guest
This is something that always tripped me up as well, but I think I have it narrowed down to a general rule of thumb, that paying something as a cost is not really ever considered targetting, and it's not considered as part of the actual effect. The two examples I always compare these obscure situations to are 1) The End of Anubis can't prevent the summoning of the Chaos monsters because the cards are removed from play as a cost to summon, they are not targetted and thus cannot be negated by EoA's effect. And somewhat similar 2) You can Level Up! Horus Lv 6 since he is paid as a cost to activate Level Up!, so his effect of not being affected by spell cards does not apply.John Danker said:
In either of those situations, if costs targetted or were considered as part of the effect of a card, the monster effects involved would negate the action you were trying to perform.
Take that for what it's worth, it helpes me remember anyhoo...