Dark Illusion vs. Forced Back

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HorusMaster

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Had a little situation where we didn't agree on the resolution of effects:

Scenario
Player A has a set Spirit Reaper and flip summons him during his turn.
Player B activates Forced Back and targets Spirit Reaper
Player A chains Dark Illusion.

What is the proper resolution to this scenario. I said that Dark Illusion would negate Forced Back since it targetted Spirit Reaper and it's a Dark attribute. The other player stated that since Forced Back negated the summoning of Spirit Reaper, it never hit the field and as such, could not be a targetted Dark monster. I tried to explain that Forced Back's effect didn't resolve since Dark Illusion negated it and as such, would not send Spirit Reaper back to my hand.

Who is correct?
 
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Forced Back still follows the chain rules for any other Trap Card. It still has to resolve before it's considered to have negated anything. This is just a case of a negator negating a negator. And I'm afraid that he's not going to get Forced Back's effect before it gets its turn on the chain. I'm not sure why he thinks he can break the chain rules here. It's getting negated by Dark Illusion long before it gets a chance to negate Spirit Reaper's summon.
 
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"Forced Back" doesn't target, anyway. A summon occurs, a Counter is the response. That monster is sent back.

"D.D. Assailant" is destroyed by battle, the monster that did it is removed.

The way I've always been taught is that almost every Counter Trap Card doesn't target, except for some of the more special ones.
 
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Oceanus said:
"Forced Back" doesn't target, anyway. A summon occurs, a Counter is the response. That monster is sent back.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid you're wrong about Forced Back- it does target. Phoenix Wing Wind Blast is another trap that targets. While most Counter Trap cards are designed to negate or destroy Trap cards, there are some that target monsters on the field rather than countering other trap cards.
 
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I don't understand what you're point is.

"Dark Illusion" cannot be chained to "Forced Back" because "Forced Back" doesn't target a face-up monster. The monster isn't even considered Summoned yet, it is not on the field or in the hand. So it doesn't make sense that it can target, because the card is in a spot that isn't targetable.

However, PWWB targets because when it's activated, the card is on the field.
 
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If Dark Illusion is chained to Forced Back you have to resolve the chain. Forced Back doesn't get it's effect of negating the summon in the middle of the chain. If it were to do so, it would break the rules of chaining effects. Regardless of what dark monster is summoned, Forced Back has to wait for the chain to resolve to see if it's effect resolves. In this case, Spirit Reaper is summoned (it's face up on the field waiting to see what happens), Forced Back is activated in response to the summon (Chain Link 1) and targets Spirit Reaper. Dark Illusion is activated in response to Forced Back's activation (Chain Link 2). Resolve the chain.

Chain Link 2 (Dark Illusion negates Forced Back since it targetted Spirit Reaper, a Dark monster and destroys it.)
Chain Link 1 Forced Back is negated and destroyed before it can resolve to send Spirit Reaper back to the hand.

Is this a little clearer for you?
 
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No, because summon negators activate before response to summons are. The monster is neither on the field nor in the hand at that point. It can't be targeted by any effect at such a point. Didn't you read my last response?
 
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Oceanus said:
No, because summon negators activate before response to summons are. The monster is neither on the field nor in the hand at that point. It can't be targeted by any effect at such a point. Didn't you read my last response?
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Do you understand activation and resolution of card effects with regard to Chains? Forced Back activates in RESPONSE to a summons. Therefore, by your terminology, it is in response to a summons. While Forced Back negates the summoning of a monster, it is STILL beholden to other card effects that activate in response to Forced Back's effect. Dark Illusion is activating in response to Forced Back's effect, not activation. But before Forced Back gets it's effect, it has to resolve. If I activated and chained Seven Tools of the Bandit or Counter Counter, would it not negate and destroy Forced Back? Save you the time- yes, it would. Forced Back CANNOT get it's effect in the middle of a chain or before the chain resolves. If Forced Back does not resolve and get it's effect, then it WILL NOT negate the summoning of a monster- PERIOD!! Look at the Yugioh rules book with regard to chains and read up on activations and resolutions of card effects that occur in a chain.
 
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I think we've had this argument before. For the interests of cards that deal with effects after going from "here" to "there", a monster in mid-summon is nether considered in the hand or on the field. But that begs the question, where is it?

For right now I'm sure we could argue all day where it isn't. Suffice it to say, I feel the original intent of the first question was how a negator negates a negator. And the answer was, the same as any other chain. I personally feel like the summon response point should dictate some kind of zone for the summoned monster, so we don't have this ethereal limbo where cards neither exists nor don't exist. But until then, we should probably presume that Dark Illusion should have never been chained to Forced Back in the first place.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
But until then, we should probably presume that Dark Illusion should have never been chained to Forced Back in the first place.
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Why shouldn't Dark Illusion be chained? If Spirit Reaper is already set and it gets flipped summoned, it's considered already on the field unless another card negates it summoning. Forced Back, if allowed to resolve fully, would negate the summon, send it back to the hand and make it as if the summon never happened-agree? Spirit Reaper would have to hit the field at some point for Forced Back to target the monster in order to negate the summoning of said monster. So if another card negates Forced Back's ability to negate a summon, why wouldn't Spirit Reaper stay?

For your "not sure where it is" zone, I think the card stays on the field but doesn't fully "materialize" as a monster if Forced Back is activated. Forced Back makes you say, "hey, that card wasn't really there" and as such, would not get the ability to activate it's effect (provided there is one) when it is summoned. Dark Illusion is a legal, chainable card to activate and negate Forced Back.
 
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There is currently only one Counter Trap in this game that targets......"Negate Attack".

Every other Counter Trap in this game does not target.


The original scenario is not a legal play since "Forced Back" does not target "Spirit Reaper".
 
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HorusMaster said:
Why shouldn't Dark Illusion be chained? If Spirit Reaper is already set and it gets flipped summoned, it's considered already on the field unless another card negates it summoning. Forced Back, if allowed to resolve fully, would negate the summon, send it back to the hand and make it as if the summon never happened-agree? Spirit Reaper would have to hit the field at some point for Forced Back to target the monster in order to negate the summoning of said monster. So if another card negates Forced Back's ability to negate a summon, why wouldn't Spirit Reaper stay?

For your "not sure where it is" zone, I think the card stays on the field but doesn't fully "materialize" as a monster if Forced Back is activated. Forced Back makes you say, "hey, that card wasn't really there" and as such, would not get the ability to activate it's effect (provided there is one) when it is summoned. Dark Illusion is a legal, chainable card to activate and negate Forced Back.
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Like I said, we had discussed this at rather long length once before (Back when our threads used to go on for days. I miss those days sometimes.) and at the time there was still a ruling that said a Flip Summoned Sangan would not activate if its summon was negated and it was destroyed, even though it technically went from the field to the Graveyard. Me and DaGuy went on about that one as to where the card was and where it wasn't when it was destroyed. But in any case, I don't recall seeing a revision of that ruling. So I presume it still stands.
 
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skey23 said:
There is currently only one Counter Trap in this game that targets......"Negate Attack".

Every other Counter Trap in this game does not target.


The original scenario is not a legal play since "Forced Back" does not target "Spirit Reaper".
Click to expand...

Per Netrep:
Forced Back
Negate the Normal Summon or Flip Summon of a monster and return the monster to its owner's hand.

Forced Back specifically selects only one monster at time of activation.

Negate Attack is similar in that it negates the attack of the monster.

So, please explain to me how Forced Back does not target.
 
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It's that special time when Solemn Judgment and similar cards activate before the Summon actually is complete... the Summon hasn't officially happened yet and therefore you're not targeting a card that is "in play"...
 
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SoilentG said:
It's that special time when Solemn Judgment and similar cards activate before the Summon actually is complete... the Summon hasn't officially happened yet and therefore you're not targeting a card that is "in play"...
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Again, this is provided that I don't negate Solemn Judgement. Seven Tools of the Bandit gets chained to Solemn Judgement and the monster remains on the field. In order for Forced Back to activate, the monster has to be summoned to the field. Both Solemn Judgement and Forced Back have card effect conditions that state to negate the summon and this is simply to negate effects that monsters have when summoned, whether it's a Flip, Normal or Special Summon. But, in order for Forced Back to activate, the card has to be on the field, making the card available to be targetted by Forced Back's effect.

So, again I ask- how can anyone say that Forced Back does not target?
 
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HorusMaster said:
Again, this is provided that I don't negate Solemn Judgement. Seven Tools of the Bandit gets chained to Solemn Judgement and the monster remains on the field. In order for Forced Back to activate, the monster has to be summoned to the field. Both Solemn Judgement and Forced Back have card effect conditions that state to negate the summon and this is simply to negate effects that monsters have when summoned, whether it's a Flip, Normal or Special Summon. But, in order for Forced Back to activate, the card has to be on the field, making the card available to be targetted by Forced Back's effect.

So, again I ask- how can anyone say that Forced Back does not target?
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You mean in that it it only affects one monster? I think what we're dealing with here is with the nature of response timing. You activate certain effects at certain times during the game. Even if that time is only going to affect one monster any time it's used, it's not necessarily targeting. Most of the time, a selection process is required for a targeting effect, and one that takes place at activation. Solemn Judgement isn't selecting anything. It's negating the summon of the monster it's responding to when it goes to resolve. Remember that the number of monsters affected does not determine whether it's a targeting effect. What determines that, is whether the monster(s) are selected at activation or at resolution. Solemn Judgement would appear to be a case of a monster being affected at the resolution of the effect, since the response timing is going to dictate which monster it affects anyway.

Even if you make the case for Forced Back being a targeting effect, we've still got the musty old rulings for Sangan and Flip Summoning negation. Don't know if it's still in effect or not, but it used to dictate that a negated summon did not qualify the monster for "here to there" effects, because it was neither "here nor there". By extension, Spirit Reaper was nether here nor there, neither face-up on the field, nor face-down, nor in the hand when his summon was negated, so Dark Illusion couldn't have been activated in the first place.
 
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Dave, I'll agree that the card hits the field, but it still waits to be successfully summoned. It is not considered summoned until it is not negated. That is why we have the term "successfully summoned" and why Jinzo (a continuous card mind you, not using the chain at all) or any of the effect cards that do use the chain, must wait until the summon is succesful in order to get their effects. If it was the case, as you are suggesting, then NOBODY can Force Back, or Solemn Judgement a Machine-type monster when Cyber Phoenix is in face-up ATK position (Cyber Phoenix's negating effect is continuous and does not use the chain, thereby laughing at spell speed 3).
 
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