Dark Illusion vs. Forced Back

[HorusMaster]

Had a little situation where we didn't agree on the resolution of effects:

Scenario
Player A has a set Spirit Reaper and flip summons him during his turn.
Player B activates Forced Back and targets Spirit Reaper
Player A chains Dark Illusion.

What is the proper resolution to this scenario. I said that Dark Illusion would negate Forced Back since it targetted Spirit Reaper and it's a Dark attribute. The other player stated that since Forced Back negated the summoning of Spirit Reaper, it never hit the field and as such, could not be a targetted Dark monster. I tried to explain that Forced Back's effect didn't resolve since Dark Illusion negated it and as such, would not send Spirit Reaper back to my hand.

Who is correct?

 

[HorusMaster]

Because Counter Traps do not target. Like I said before, there is only one Counter Trap in the game that targets (at this time).

You can argue all you want, but I've given you the reason why.

Simon, all due respect, you've given me nothing to explain how Forced Back doesn't target other than to say that Negate Attack is the only counter trap in the game that targets. Where is the card when it is summoned and if it's waiting to be "successfully summoned", how can Forced Back or Solemn Judgement negate a summon unless the card is on the field. My arguement is that BOTH should be considered as "targetting" counter traps as they cannot activate unless the affected card is summoned, albeit, waiting for resolution of the summon. My arguement is that cards like these negate the summon of the monster simply for negation of monster effects that occur when summoned. If the card is not on the field, neither card could activate because they both require the monster to be summoned in order to negate the summon. In order to negate the summon, the card MUST be targetted for the effects of Forced Back and Solemn Judgement to resolve. I understand that Negate Attack is the only targetting Trap Card in the game at this time but I think this is something that needs to be discussed further and maybe changes should be made. We've had other cards that were listed as non-targetting when first introduced to the game but later, after looking at the card, was changed to be a targetting card. If this is a situation of BKSS, then again, it's something that should be discussed and if appropriate, changes should be made. Sorry for the long dissertation.

 

[skey23]

Let's try a different approach...

Summon Negators do not have the same timing as cards that respond to summons ("Torrential Tribute", "Bottomless Trap Hole", etc...).
Summon Negators are activated before the monster is considered to be successfully summoned to the field.
Cards like "Torrential Tribute" are activated after the monster is considered to be successfully summoned to the field.

The mechanics of summoning a monster..101

1. First you announce your summon (Normal or Tribute).

2. Then, you place the monster on the field in face-up attack position.
If the summon is a Tribute Summon, you place the tributed monster in the Graveyard at this time. Any triggered effects of the tributed monster will trigger at this time, but will not activate until the Summon is considered to be successful or negated.

Even though the monster is physically on the field, it has not been successfully summoned at this time and is not considered to be 'on the field' yet.
This is why the continuous effects of monsters like "Jinzo" are not active yet.

3. You, as the Turn Player, have Priority to negate the summon of the monster first. If you choose to do so, this begins a chain.

You can activate "Forced Back" when you Normal or Flip Summon your own monster. You should announce this immediately after your Summon. Once you allow your opponent to activate "Torrential Tribute" you are acknowledging that the Summon was successful and you cannot activate "Forced Back".

If you do not wish to negate your summon, then your opponent has the chance to negate the summon. If they do so, this begins a chain.

4. If the summon is negated, then the monster is never considered to have made it to the field. Skip to step 6.

If the Summon of this card is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" you do not get its effect.

If the Summon of this card is negated with "Horn of Heaven" or "Solemn Judgment" you do not get its effect.

The monster is also not considered to be in your hand.

If the summoning of "Electric Snake" is negated by "Solemn Judgment", etc. its effect is not activated, as it is not considered to have gone directly from your hand to the Graveyard.

If the summoning of "Minar" is negated by "Solemn Judgment", etc. its effect is not activated, as it is not considered to have gone directly from your hand to the Graveyard.

Since the monster is not considered to be on the field, nor in the hand, it is said to be in a 'limbo' state between the Hand and Field. (No 'limbo' is not any kind of official term. It was the best thing we came up with to explain where the monster was.)

5. If neither of you wish to negate the summon, then that monster is considered to have been successfully summoned to the field.

6. Any waiting Trigger effects from a monster that was offered as a tribute are activated now ("Sangan", "Witch of the Black Forest", etc..). If the monster was successfully summoned, any new triggers that activate in response to a monster being summoned (Monarchs, "Stumbling", etc...) will be added to the chain on top of the tributed monster's effect(s). NOW is when you can respond to a successful summon with cards like "Torrential Tribute", "Bottomless Trap Hole", etc..


So, as you can see, the timing for the cards is very different.

To address the issue of a monster being Flip Summoned. The act of Flip Summoning a monster places that monster into that 'limbo' zone because the Flip Summon can be negated just like any other summon. If the Flip Summon is negated, then that monster is not considered to have been on the field, even though that's where it started.

If you negate the Normal or Flip Summon of "Dark Magician of Chaos" with "Forced Back", it is returned to the hand and is not removed from play.

If "DMoC" was considered to have been on the field when Flip Summoned, then he would have been removed from play instead of being returned to the Hand.


Another way of looking at this would be from a targeting perspective.
Cards can only be targeted if they are in a public zone. What are the public zones? Field, Graveyard and RFP.
If an effect would affect a card in a non-public zone, it cannot target the card it would affect.
As we've seen from the ruings I provided, a monster that had its summon negated (any summon) is not considered to be on the field, so it is not in a public zone.
Since "Forced Back" is a card that negates the summon of a monster, then it affects a card that is not in a public zone, so it cannot target that card.


I hope this helps to better explain why "Forced Back" does not target.


And my apologies to all for my now removed outburst earlier. I took things personally which I should not have done.

 

[cuzwbd]

the forced back & targeting thing - i try to think of it as forced back negates an event ( a summon) and the monster is irrelevant, it matters only in that, if its summon was negated (forced back resolved), it cant "still" be on field, so must be 'considered' to have never been there.... not too sure how accurate that is....

same for solemn... negating the "activation" of a spell - not the actual spell effect...

kind of ... negate the "xx event xx" and do "xx this xx" with the "card" negated... forced back could negate the summon and put the monster in rfp, bottom/top of deck, gy destroy what ever, as part of the effect of forced back, just that if the summon is negated the card cant be on field...
not sure how precise that is but i usually get right the events...

as for negate attack - um.. players activate and summon - "do events/game plays" , but monsters attack...

 

[SoilentG]

wow, Simon, no wonder you didn't want to have say all that... thanks though! That really helps!

 

[Oceanus]

Flawless reattempt, skey23.

 

[Maruno]

Good stuff, skey.

I would have made a post yesterday about Forced Back (and all similar cards) negating the Summon event, irrespective of the monster being Summoned (i.e. not targeting the monster, just affecting the event), and that it was a matter of wording (it's hard to word it as a non-targeting effect when you're affecting a single monster - one monster because you can't Normal or Flip Summon multiple monsters at once)... but there was some kind of database error here at CoG and it effectively told me to get knotted.

I have since forgotten which threads I wanted to respond to yesterday, and why.