"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" vs. "The End of Anubis"

[Kyhotae]

I have gotten into this wonderful discussion with Simon on another forum and I thought I would bring the fun here.

The question is whether "The End of Anubis" would negate the effect of the Normal Spell Card sent to the Graveyard by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude".

After reading through the rulings and noticing that they were very specific about saying that the effect activates and not the Spell Card, it was asserted that "The End of Anubis" had no power over it because it only negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. Since there's not Spell Card being activated by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect, then "The End of Anubis" can't negate it.

The other assertion was simply that it's a Spell Card effect and it's activating in the Graveyard, so "The End of Anubis" will negate it.

So, there you have it. Let us know how you feel.

 

[HorusMaster]

I wanted to say that DH-DD effect is a ING effect but for whatever reasons, it didn't post that way.

 

[Kyhotae]

Just because the effect designates how to use the effect of the Spell Card that was discarded, that doesn't mean that the effect targets. Like I said, nothing happens at all until resolution and no card can be targeted during resolution. That's the main difference between targeting and non-targeting. Targeting effects select cards at activation, non-targeting cards select cards at resolution.

 

[novastar]

[End of Anubis] will negate the activation of the Normal Spell Card.

"[..]all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated."

This line of text has absolutely nothing to do with Card Activation, and actually means:

Any effect that was generated from a Spell/Trap/Monster Card and "activates" (begins an activation sequence and creates a Chain Link), as a result of the card being or while the card is/was located, in the Graveyard.

In the case of [Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude], it's effect simply places the card in the graveyard, and enables you to activate it, that's it...

After that, you are activating the effect of the Normal Spell Card while the card is in the Graveyard, and only IF that card is still located there, as if it was played to the Graveyard rather than the Field (of course with the exception of card activation costs).

 

[skey23]

I like Nova's answer.......:duel_yes...yup, I really do.

 

[Kyhotae]

Well, since Simon let the cat out of the bag concerning which assertion was made by whom, I guess I'll address this.

[End of Anubis] will negate the activation of the Normal Spell Card.

"[..]all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated."

This line of text has absolutely nothing to do with Card Activation, and actually means:

Any effect that was generated from a Spell/Trap/Monster Card and "activates" (begins an activation sequence and creates a Chain Link), as a result of the card being or while the card is/was located, in the Graveyard.

In the case of [Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude], it's effect simply places the card in the graveyard, and enables you to activate it, that's it...

That's the whole point. The effect is not generated from the Spell Card. The rulings for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" are quite clear about that. You're not activating the card that is sent to the Graveyard. It is only used for reference for the effect that is being activated. That's why you can't activate the effect if the card isn't there--there's no reference for the effect.

But the card is not activating in the Graveyard. The effect is cardless. "The End of Anubis" negates effects of cards that activate in the Graveyard. You're not activating the card when you're using effect of "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude", you're ONLY using the effect.

 

[novastar]

That's the whole point. The effect is not generated from the Spell Card. The rulings for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" are quite clear about that. You're not activating the card that is sent to the Graveyard.

Well point me to the "quite clear" ruling you are refering to, because i don't see it.

There is a difference between "playing" a card and "activating the effect". The only reason you don't pay activation costs, is because the card itself is not being "played" at the time of activation, but rather is "played" during the resolution of the effect of DD, which circumvents the costs (rather than you manualy playing it from Hand). The effect is treated as a delayed activation, manualy chosen by you.

However, this arguement doesn't matter, because it is stated plainly that the effect activates from the Graveyard, and whether it's a Spell effect or Monster effect, EoA negates them all.

But the card is not activating in the Graveyard. The effect is cardless. "The End of Anubis" negates effects of cards that activate in the Graveyard.

Absolutely not, no effect is ever "cardless"...it is always generated from 1 of the 3 types.

It negates effects generated from Spell/Trap/Monster Cards, coming from the Graveyard... and the ruling quite clearly states that the "effect" of the "Spell Card" is "activating" from the "Graveyard"... so it comes from the Spell Card.

[End of Anubis] does not care about the card itself, or if it's card or effect activation... as long as the effect was generating from the Graveyard (at the time of activation), which quite clearly it is in this case. This is no different than activating [Sinister Serpent], which we all know [End of Anubis] negates.

You are going to need more weight here to convince further.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Novastar, you've provided no proof of your assertions.

As i pointed out earlier, its card text is not as clear as you think it is.

 

[Kyhotae]

Well point me to the "quite clear" ruling you are refering to, because i don't see it.

Well, there are several of them. Starting with the very first one.

"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" doesn't actually activate the Normal Spell card itself. Instead, he just activates its effect.

Since you are only activating the Normal Spell Card's effect, and not the Normal Spell Card itself...

Since the Spell Card itself is not activated (only its effect is)...

You cannot chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of the Normal Spell Card's effect during the next Main Phase...

The Normal Spell Card's effect activates in the Graveyard.

If the Normal Spell Card is no longer in your Graveyard during your next turn, you cannot activate its effect.

If the effect of the Normal Spell Card targets, you cannot activate the effect unless there is an eligible target on the field.

As you can see, the rulings are quite specific as to what's occuring here and it only references the card. It doesn't activate the card. The Normal Spell Card does not activate in the Graveyard, only the effect does. As I said before, the effect is cardless. This is the first time we've had to deal with a cardless effect before, so that's why it's so confusing.

There is a difference between "playing" a card and "activating the effect" and all DD's effect is doing is playing the card for you.

The only reason you don't pay activation costs, is because the card itself is not being "played" at the time of activation, but rather is "played" during the resolution of the effect of DD, which circumvents the costs (rather than you manualy playing it from Hand). The effect is treated as a delayed activation, manualy chosen by you.

According to the rulings I have quoted, this cannot be true. It specifically mentions that the card is not being activated. This implies that cards can and do activate when they are "played" as you say. The card is merely reference. It is not activated.

However, this arguement doesn't matter, because it is stated plainly that the effect activates from the Graveyard, and whether it's a Spell effect or Monster effect, EoA negates them all.

Not according to the effect of "The End of Anubis". It negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. As I've shown, cards can and do activate, but this one is not activating, as the rulings have shown. Only the effect is activating without the card, so "The End of Anubis" can't negate it because the card is not activating in the Graveyard.

Absolutely not, no effect is ever "cardless"...it is always generated from 1 of the 3 types.

Before this card was released with its unique effect, I would have said you were correct, but this card has introduced a new concept to Yu-Gi-Oh! and that concept is "cardless effects."

It negates effects generated from Spell/Trap/Monster Cards, coming from the Graveyard... and the ruling quite clearly states that the "effect" of the "Spell Card" is "activating" from the "Graveyard"... so it comes from the Spell Card.

No, "The End of Anubis" only negates cards that target a card in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard, like the effect states. Again, no card is activating in the Graveyard here.

[End of Anubis] does not care about the card itself, or if it's card or effect activation... as long as the effect was generating from the Graveyard (at the time of activation), which quite clearly it is in this case. This is no different than activating [Sinister Serpent], which we all know [End of Anubis] negates.

Actually it's much different from "Sinister Serpent". "Sinister Serpent" is a card that activates in the Graveyard. "The End of Anubis" is all over that...

You are going to need more weight here to convince further.

Hopefully I added a few more pounds with this.

 

[novastar]

nvm............

 

[novastar]

Novastar, you've provided no proof of your assertions.

As i pointed out earlier, its card text is not as clear as you think it is.

What proof do i need?

If an effect activates in the Graveyard ...[End of Anubis] negates it... period. Regardless of whether the Spell Card or Diamond Dude's effect is doing to activating.

It doesn't matter what is doing the activating, or where that card is, if the effect comes the Graveyard...it's negated.

You haven't shown unclear text...YOU think that not me.

 

[Kyhotae]

I should probably let you read my post, but still... "The End of Anubis" only negates the effects of cards that target a card in the Graveyard and cards that activate in the Graveyard. Again, no card is being activated in the Graveyard, so "The End of Anubis" cannot negate its effect.

 

[novastar]

Well, there are several of them. Starting with the very first one.

[/size][/size][/size][/size][/size]

[/size]As you can see, the rulings are quite specific as to what's occuring here and it only references the card. It doesn't activate the card. The Normal Spell Card does not activate in the Graveyard, only the effect does. As I said before, the effect is cardless. This is the first time we've had to deal with a cardless effect before, so that's why it's so confusing.


According to the rulings I have quoted, this cannot be true. It specifically mentions that the card is not being activated. This implies that cards can and do activate when they are "played" as you say. The card is merely reference. It is not activated.


Not according to the effect of "The End of Anubis". It negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. As I've shown, cards can and do activate, but this one is not activating, as the rulings have shown. Only the effect is activating without the card, so "The End of Anubis" can't negate it because the card is not activating in the Graveyard.


Before this card was released with its unique effect, I would have said you were correct, but this card has introduced a new concept to Yu-Gi-Oh! and that concept is "cardless effects."


No, "The End of Anubis" only negates cards that target a card in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard, like the effect states. Again, no card is activating in the Graveyard here.


Actually it's much different from "Sinister Serpent". "Sinister Serpent" is a card that activates in the Graveyard. "The End of Anubis" is all over that...


Hopefully I added a few more pounds with this.

After reviewing the text and rulings, i definately see some holes in what i said but...

The fundamental difference between what we are saying still remains this:

You believe that the card generating the activation must be activating its effect from the Graveyard in order for End of Anubis to negate it, i completely disagree.

End of Anubis' effect is NOT card aware, all it cares about is if the effect itself is being activated from the Graveyard... not what card is doing the activating or from where. It's not looking for Card Activation, all it cares about is Effect Activation.

If the effect of the Normal Spell Card were being carried out during the resolution of DD's effect (much like Double Spell), then you would definately be right, but that is not the case here.

I think the only solution at this point is to go on the Board to confirm this.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

What proof do i need?

If an effect activates in the Graveyard [End of Anubis] negates it... period. Regardlessof whether the Spell Card or Diamond Dude's effect is doing to activating.

I don't need proof of this... but one thing i do know, is that you don't know how to break down text.

You need to prove that your interpretation is correct, but you offered no proof, as i said before there are tow possible ways to break down the text:

"While this card is face-up on the field, all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated."

Since we're not dealing with a card that targets we can eliminate that part, and we can also assume that The End of Anubis is Face-up, and that a card is either a spell,trap or monster:

all effects of Cards that activate in the Graveyard are negated.

Now tell me why do you not think that

"Cards that activate in the Graveyard" is not a correct interpretation?

What evidence do you have that The End of Anubis doesn't negate the effects of cards that activate in the graveyard.

The sentence either means:
Take cards that are activating in the graveyard and negate their effect(s).
or
Negate effects activating in the graveyard if the effects belong to a card.

You must offer proof if you want to claim that one is correct.

Yes The End of Anubis negates card effects activating in the graveyard, but you don't have any proof that it negates ALL card effects activating in the graveyard, or only the ones that belong to a card activating in the graveyard.

 

[novastar]

Because from years of reading card text, and when you really understand templating, I know one thing:

When they say: "all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards [...] that activate in the Graveyard are negated.""

They really mean:

[all effects (of [all_Card_Types])] [that activate in the Graveyard] [are negated]

That is templating.

Your problem lies more in the fact that you think real life grammer works here, when it doesn't.

Card Text is written in a programming language, not english. It answers questions, and drills down.

What effects does it negate? All activated effects
From what Card Types? All Types
From where? The Graveyard

If it meets all the criterion, it is negated.

 

[Kyhotae]

"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" messes that templating up. If we now have cardless effects, then we can't just say that all "effects" are affected. We have to see what kind of effects are affected. The effects that "The End of Anubis" negate are the effects of cards that activate in the Graveyard. There is no card activating in the Graveyard that has an effect for "The End of Anubis" to negate.

Besides, that template doesn't apply to the Effect in question here.

What effects does it negate? All activated effects
From what Card Types? All Types
From where? The Graveyard

If it meets all the criterion, it is negated.

This effect doesn't originate from any card type. Remember? It's a cardless effect.

 

[novastar]

"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" messes that templating up. If we now have cardless effects, then we can't just say that all "effects" are affected.

Yea... but where in the world are you getting this from?

There is no basis for this other than to just make it up.

Infact:

""Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" doesn't actually activate the Normal Spell card itself. Instead, he just activates its effect. So the Spell Card remains in the Graveyard."

This ruling infact states that Diamond Dude's effect is actually doing the activating, which also explains why you don't pay activation costs.

Then it states this:

"The Normal Spell Card's effect activates in the Graveyard. So its effect will not be negated by "Spell Canceller"."

So if anything, it is [an effect] from a [Monster Card] that is [activating in the Graveyard]

Which plugs in perfectly, and should be negated by End of Anubis.

 

[Kyhotae]

I didn't make it up. It's all in the rulings that I quoted. I have supported everything that I have asserted.

 

[novastar]

That is NOT cardless, if anything it is Diamond Dude's effect that is activating the effect...which means that that is it is infact a Monster Card effect.

 

[Kyhotae]

"¢ "Divine Wrath" can be chained to "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude's" Ignition Effect when it is activated. You cannot chain "Divine Wrath" to the activation of the Normal Spell Card's effect during the next Main Phase (because "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude's" effect is not activating at that time.)

It's not his effect, it's the Spell Cards effect, but it's not the Spell Card being activated. Just its effect.

You can even still activate the effect of the Spell Card if "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" is off the field. So even if it was the effect of "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude", the effect was activated on the field, so it resolves on the field, using an effect that activates in the Graveyard.

Besides, if it was "Diamond Dude"s effect, then it would affect "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6", but it's already been ruled that it doesn't, as you pointed out.

 

[ygo doc]

This effect doesn't originate from any card type. Remember? It's a cardless effect.

Just to preface this response, I don't know what the actual ruling is with The End of Anubis vs. Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude.

I would be cautious using the term "cardless effect". That is not a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG term that I am aware of, nor do I even consider that an accurate statement since Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude has this ruling:

If the Normal Spell Card is no longer in your Graveyard during your next turn, you cannot activate its effect.

The Spell card must still be in the Graveyard to reference its effect; so essentially, it is NOT a cardless effect.

Clearly the rulings for Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude state that the Spell card does NOT activate in the Graveyard; no activation costs are paid and the effect does NOT go on chain! That's why you can't use "Magic Jammer" or "Magic Drain" against the Spell card. It is better to think of the Spell card "resolving" in the Graveyard.

The question for me is, did Konami intend The End of Anubis to be like a Spell Canceller for the Graveyard? i.e. Does TEoA negate all Spell effects in the Graveyard, or just the activation of such effects?

With the current wording of The End of Anubis, I suspect it does NOT negate DH-DD's Spell effect, but you never know with Konami...

doc

P.S. Has anyone asked this question of UDE yet?