"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" vs. "The End of Anubis"

[Kyhotae]

I have gotten into this wonderful discussion with Simon on another forum and I thought I would bring the fun here.

The question is whether "The End of Anubis" would negate the effect of the Normal Spell Card sent to the Graveyard by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude".

After reading through the rulings and noticing that they were very specific about saying that the effect activates and not the Spell Card, it was asserted that "The End of Anubis" had no power over it because it only negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. Since there's not Spell Card being activated by "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect, then "The End of Anubis" can't negate it.

The other assertion was simply that it's a Spell Card effect and it's activating in the Graveyard, so "The End of Anubis" will negate it.

So, there you have it. Let us know how you feel.

 

[skey23]

P.S. Has anyone asked this question of UDE yet?

The L3s aren't allowed....remember...lol.

 

[ygo doc]

The L3s aren't allowed....remember...lol.

Unfortunately, yes! which is why I haven't asked it yet...

doc

 

[Kyhotae]

Just to preface this response, I don't know what the actual ruling is with The End of Anubis vs. Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude.

I would be cautious using the term "cardless effect". That is not a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG term that I am aware of, nor do I even consider that an accurate statement since Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude has this ruling:

If the Normal Spell Card is no longer in your Graveyard during your next turn, you cannot activate its effect.

The Spell card must still be in the Graveyard to reference its effect; so essentially, it is NOT a cardless effect.

I do not make this assertion lightly, but that is what's going on here. Just because the Spell Card is referenced, it doesn't mean that that card is activating. The card must be in the Graveyard so the game knows what effect to activate.

So we have an effect that activates, but no Spell Card that is activating. There has never been a situation like this in Yu-Gi-Oh! So, even though it was not a game term before, this card seems to change all that.

Clearly the rulings for Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude state that the Spell card does NOT activate in the Graveyard; no activation costs are paid and the effect does NOT go on chain! That's why you can't use "Magic Jammer" or "Magic Drain" against the Spell card. It is better to think of the Spell card "resolving" in the Graveyard.

Well, I would think of it that way except all the rulings say that the effect is activating, but the card is not. Sure the effect resolves, but not until after it activates.

 

[masterwoo0]

The L3s aren't allowed....remember...lol.

That's why you have to "cheat", and ask the most absurd question you can think of, to get an answer. I mean, if they can still answer questions to tell people they need to go to the FAQ, then they certainly can take the time to answer a "real" question that isnt addressed there.

 

[novastar]

I'll ask it and post the answer when it is given.

This is clearly a Spell Card effect, and End of Anubis mechanically does not care about Card Activation at all. Activating this effect would be comparable to activating an effect of a Continuous Card already face up.

Either way, it seems that the effect of [End of Anubis] is greatly misunderstood. I don't mind being wrong here, but unless there is a really obscure nuance that i'm missing, i won't be.

 

[masterwoo0]

I'll ask it and post the answer when it is given.

This is clearly a Spell Card effect, and End of Anubis mechanically does not care about Card Activation at all. Activating this effect would be comparable to activating an effect of a Continuous Card already face up.

It seems that the effect of [End of Anubis] is greatly misunderstood. I don't mind being wrong here, but unless there is a really obscure nuance that i'm missing, i won't be.

I'm with you on this novastar. I think it basically comes down to the effect it negates, since most cards are already destroyed once they hit the Graveyard anyway, and even if they aren't it's still the effect that activates, not the card itself.

I mean, wouldnt Helpoemer and Marie the Fallen One be negated once The End of Anubis is active on the field?

 

[novastar]

Yes they would for sure.

I'm still hesitant to use Monster Effects because mechanically the game views them as a form of Card Activation, like being able to chain [Barrel Behind the Door] to say [Lava Golem]. All all the Spell/Trap examples are Triggers, so people will complain and it's tough to compare them.

Now having said that, there is only 1 way i can see, mechanically, that [End of Anubis] might not be able to negate this effect, and it has nothing to do with any of the arguements presented here.

If it is done in a State Based effect fashion much like [Last Will] than technically the effect has already been activated (resolved into play) during the resolution of DD's effect, and simply delayed to when you choose, there might be a possibility here.

That is the ONLY way... otherwise it's negated for sure.

 

[DaGuyWitBluGlasses]

Because from years of reading card text, and when you really understand templating, I know one thing:

When they say: "all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards [...] that activate in the Graveyard are negated.""

Anecdotal opinions are not Proof.

Card Text is written in a programming language, not english. It answers questions, and drills down.

No they are not.

The card Effect is decided upon, and then they write-up text that is written in a fluent sentence (although sometimes that means fluent in japanese style).

The effect determines the text, not the oherway around.

You really should know better, take Nomi vs Special Summon only monster for example, two different effects originally worded the exact same way.

Even now, they've changed the exact wording, yet the meaning of the two sentence end up being the exact same thing.

This card game has never had clear templating.

So assume that the game creators decided this would be the effect:
It will look at cards activating in the graveyard, and will negate any effect activating then from those cards.

Now explain to me why you don't think they could get the text "Negate all effects of cards activating in the graveyard" from that effect?

 

[masterwoo0]

Isnt this the premise we had for the argument behind Horus LV6 vs Diamond Dude and Smashing Ground??

 

[novastar]

No they are not.

The card Effect is decided upon, and then they write-up text that is written in a fluent sentence (although sometimes that means fluent in japanese style).

The effect determines the text, not the oherway around.

You really should know better, take Nomi vs Special Summon only monster for example, two different effects originally worded the exact same way.

Even now, they've changed the exact wording, yet the meaning of the two sentence end up being the exact same thing.

This card game has never had clear templating.

So assume that the game creators decided this would be the effect:
It will look at cards activating in the graveyard, and will negate any effect activating then from those cards.

Now explain to me why you don't think they could get the text "Negate all effects of cards activating in the graveyard" from that effect?

Suit yourself, i'm only offering an educated opinion.

What i am saying is that [End of Anubis]' text is refering strictly to Effect Activation and NOT Card Activation that produces effect.

Example:

[Black Pendant] has a Graveyard effect. (yes it's a triggered effect, get over it)

Can you chain [Magic Jammer] to the damage effect?

No, because it is NOT a "Spell Card activating in the Graveyard"...

Will [End of Anubis] negate the effect?

Yes, because the "effect of a Spell Card is activating in the Graveyard"

No difference, other than one being manual activation (DD) and one being triggered (BP).

[End of Anubis] could care less if a card is being activated or not. The only possible way it won't be negated is if it "state" based like [Last Will], which is a real possibility, but my gut tells me no.

 

[greeneyescat]

I agree with novastar, The End of Anubis will negate DD's effect, unless this is an issue just like the exiled force issue. I have been playing the end of anubis for around 2 years and ask different kinds of questions about it and i can conclude that it does negate the effect, since DD`s effect actives the effect of magic card from the graveyard.

 

[Kyhotae]

It's not like any other issue. This is a new concept for the game. The Spell Card isn't activating, it's only being referenced. Only the effect is activating and "The End of Anubis" only negates effects of cards that activate in the Graveyard. I feel like a broken record, but no card is activating in the Graveyard because of "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect.

 

[masterwoo0]

It's not like any other issue. This is a new concept for the game. The Spell Card isn't activating, it's only being referenced. Only the effect is activating and "The End of Anubis" only negates effects of cards that activate in the Graveyard. I feel like a broken record, but no card is activating in the Graveyard because of "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect.

No Spell Card was activating when they Ruled that Horus LV6 was unaffected by Smashing Ground either. It was just the effect that was activating, but if Horus LV6 can be unaffected by a card that never activates, then The End of Anubis can certainly negate an "effect" that activates in the Graveyard, because an effect isn't dependent on the Card to activate.

Dark Coffin even states that the effect activates, while further reading finds that it states that the Card also activates. It is not a case of never seeing a card that doesnt activate, and then have an effect that activates. Cards are played to activate them. Once they are activated, the effect activates.

You cannot manually activate an effect in the Graveyard. It must already have either a built-in effect that triggers, or an external effect that allows you to manipulate the selected card.

The End of Anubis never stated that the card had to activate. The End of Anubis states that

"Effects [of cards] that activate in the Graveyard will be negated"

That doesnt sound like it ever mentioned a "Card Activation".

 

[HorusMaster]

No Spell Card was activating when they Ruled that Horus LV6 was unaffected by Smashing Ground either. It was just the effect that was activating, but if Horus LV6 can be unaffected by a card that never activates, then The End of Anubis can certainly negate an "effect" that activates in the Graveyard, because an effect isn't dependent on the Card to activate.

Dark Coffin even states that the effect activates, while further reading finds that it states that the Card also activates. It is not a case of never seeing a card that doesnt activate, and then have an effect that activates. Cards are played to activate them. Once they are activated, the effect activates.

You cannot manually activate an effect in the Graveyard. It must already have either a built-in effect that triggers, or an external effect that allows you to manipulate the selected card.

The End of Anubis never stated that the card had to activate. The End of Anubis states that

"Effects [of cards] that activate in the Graveyard will be negated"

That doesnt sound like it ever mentioned a "Card Activation".

I agree with you Woo...the effect of the card activates from the graveyard. As the ruling states, the effect cannot activate if the Spell card is removed. DH-DD's effect is an Ignition effect. It has to have "fuel" to ignite the effect. End of Anubis WILL negate ANY effect that activates or originates from the graveyard. The ruling for Smashing Ground vs. Horus LV 6 supports that.

 

[Kyhotae]

That's a completely different situation. "Horus the Black Flame Dragon" is unaffected by the effects of Spell Cards (it has been ruled so). Though you're not activating the card with "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect, you ARE activating a Spell effect, so "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" cannot be effected. So no comparison to rulings for "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" and "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" can be applied here or compared to this.

...cards] that activate...

That sounds just like a card activation to me...

 

[masterwoo0]

That's a completely different situation. "Horus the Black Flame Dragon" is unaffected by the effects of Spell Cards (it has been ruled so). Though you're not activating the card with "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect, you ARE activating a Spell effect, so "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" cannot be effected. So no comparison to rulings for "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" and "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" can be applied here or compared to this.


That sounds just like a card activation to me...

That's cause you're not reading it correctly.

The End of Anubis
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 6 Stars / ATK 2500 / DEF 0)
While this card is face-up on the field, all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated.


The End of Anubis states that it will negate (breaking it down from his text)

All effects of Spells

All effects of Traps

All effects of Monster Cards [that target cards in the Graveyard]


The End of Anubis states that it will negate

All effects of Spells

All effects of Traps

All effects of Monsters [that activate in the Graveyard]


Where does it state that a card is activating in the Graveyard?? The fact that an effect can ONLY come from one of the three methods makes it almost impossible to not associate a "card" with the "effect", and that is where the confusion is created. The effect can only come from the card, but the card is not being activated in the Graveyard. The effect is being activated in the Graveyard.


This is what you are trying to say that The End of Anubis is doing

The End of Anubis
Effect Monster (Fiend / DARK / 6 Stars / ATK 2500 / DEF 0)
While this card is face-up on the field, all Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated.

(I deleted "effects" from the text)

 

[Kyhotae]

That's what the effect of "The End of Anubis" says. Since the rulings for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" make it clear that the effect is activating and not the card, it is reasonable to conclude that cards can activate and produce effects, or effects can activate without the activation of a card. The Spell Card is not being activated and producing an effect. An effect is being activated with only a Spell Card as reference.

"The End of Anubis" says that it negates effects that activate in the Graveyard. However, since there are now multiple types of effects that can activate in the Graveyard, we must look at which one "The End of Anubis" negates. Luckily, his effect also tells us that. He negates effects of Spell Cards that activate in the Graveyard. "Ojama Magic" activates in the Graveyard, the effect of "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" does not activate a Spell Card in the Graveyard. It only activates its effect.

 

[Maruno]

"¢ "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" doesn't actually activate the Normal Spell card itself. Instead, he just activates its effect. So the Spell Card remains in the Graveyard.

It's clear that he activates the effect of the Spell Card.

"¢ Since you are only activating the Normal Spell Card's effect, and not the Normal Spell Card itself, you do not pay costs and you do not have to meet any activation requirements. For example, you would not pay 1000 Life Points for "Confiscation", or discard 1 card for "Monster Reincarnation", or need a "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" on the field to activate the effect of "Burst Stream of Destruction".

Again, you're activating the effect of a Spell Card, and not making the monster effect of Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude the same as the effect of that Spell Card. (If you were doing the latter, Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude's effect would be worded differently to the very blatant, "you can activate the Normal Spell Card during the Main Phase of your next turn", which clearly states you activate (the effect of) the Normal Spell Card.)

While this card is face-up on the field, all effects of Spell, Trap, and Monster Cards that target a card(s) in the Graveyard or that activate in the Graveyard are negated.

Card text of The End of Anubis. Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude activates the effect of the Spell Card, which is in the Graveyard. The End of Anubis should negate it.

However, does it? We're activating a watered-down version of a Spell Card effect (i.e. without costs), not the actual effect of the Spell Card itself (even if it had no cost, e.g. Dark Hole). The effect we're activating is an effect that doesn't belong to a card. It's a special effect based off of one. This special effect doesn't exist anywhere in the game in the form of a card, so what is it? It's some kind of pseudo-card in pseudo-space (I like that word), that only exists so that something can actually happen when you try to "activate the Spell Card". This pseudo-effect can't possibly be affected by anything, which includes The End of Anubis.

"¢ Since the Spell Card itself is not activated (only its effect is), your opponent cannot chain "Magic Jammer", "Dark Deal", "Barrel Behind the Door" or any other card that has to be chained to the activation of a Spell Card.

Since it's a pseudo-card effect, it's not one of the 209 proper Spell Cards that currently exist, and as such can't be chained to by cards that require a Spell Card activation, thus keeping in line with this ruling.

Barrel Behind the Door is a little more difficult to explain away (since it doesn't require a card activation, only an effect activation), but we can still say that because it's a pseudo-effect and not a real one, and Barrel Behind the Door only applies to real effects, it can't be activated. After all, this is the first instance of a pseudo-effect in the whole game history, and when Barrel Behind the Door was made, it certainly wasn't expected (and so nothing was done to distinguish these things).



Conclusion? The End of Anubis will not negate the effect of the Spell Card activated by Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude.

 

[masterwoo0]

Conclusion? The End of Anubis will not negate the effect of the Spell Card activated by Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude.

There is no Psuedo Effect. It is the effect of a Spell Card, plain and simple, which is why Horus LV6 is still unaffected by it.

If it was a Psuedo Spell Cards Effect, then that would mean that it was a new category of Spell Effect,

Field Spell Card
Quick-Play Spell Card
Continuous Spell Card
Ritual Spell Card
Equip Spell Card

**NEW**
"Psuedo Spell Card"

and that would mean that it would be beyond even Horus LV6's effect, because there is nothing in the game to compare it too, other than "Tokens" which are "Psuedo Monsters", because there does not exist actual Token Monster Cards.

 

[Kyhotae]

Like I said. It's a cardless effect.