Diamond Dude / Horus LV6

J

John Danker

Administrator
I saw an interesting discussion on another site concerning a scenario such as this...

Diamond Dude's effect is activated and the normal card flipped up is Smashing Ground.

The next turn the only monster on the opponent's side of the field is Horus LV6....is it destroyed?

It was an interesting conversation and showed (although we already know this) how confusing the card text is on a number of cards such as Spell Caneler, Jinzo, Diamond Dude, Horus LV6 and 8.
 
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I believe I know what you are talking about. I would side with those who say that the Spell Card is not the factor here.

Diamond Dude is transferring the effect of the Spell Card, which is never activated, to the field.

It's like relaying a message from someone. Does it really matter whether that the message was from a Male or Female originally, and delivered by someone of the opposite persuasion, or, does just the message itself matter?

In this case, does the fact that it is a Spell Card matter, or just the effect?

Dark Hole says, Destroy all monsters on the field.

If I picked up Dark Hole by Diamond Dudes effect, during my next turn, if I choose to use its effect, am I simply "Destroying all monsters on the field", or, am I applying the effect of a Spell Card to the field?

I think it is only the application of the effect that is being felt, and not the Spell Card affecting the field from the Graveyard.
 
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Hmm, I've been out of the loop for a while, so this looks like a nice place to open things up with for me.

Looking over the text of the monsters again, Horus says that its straight up unaffected by spell cards. We've always taken this to mean spell card effects (since you can use Horus for costs such as Level Up!) and I don't see anything to put this into question at this point.

One objection that might be raised is that Diamond Dude is the one invoking the effect of Smashing Ground, but I don't see anything in the card text to indicate that that is the case. Physical cards and their effects, are disconnected in a way, so Diamond Dude is simply providing a way to get a spell card effect without technically activating it, although its still the effect of the spell card performing the action.

How's that? What I'm more interested in is Horus LV8 versus Diamond Dude. There is a ruling that says cards like Magic Jammer and such can't stop Diamond Dude because those cards negate the activation of the card and destroy it. However, Horus LV8 says negate the activation and the effect of a spell card. Whether or not that means it can negate at either point I'm not sure on 8^D
 
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This ruling from Horus LV6 I found interesting, perhaps I'm taking the ruling text to literally though....

You cannot Tribute "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV 6" for "Ectoplasmer"'s effect because it is not a cost, it is a Tribute when you resolve "Ectoplasmer"'s effect, and "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" is not affected by Spell Cards' effects

So I'm thinking that even though Smashing Ground wasn't activated on the field it doesn't matter.

The keys here are if Horus LV6 is uneffected by spell card EFFECTS (The effect of the spell card IS still happening regardless of where the effect was activated from) or if Horus LV6 is uneffected by spell cards activated on the field.

We know that Spell Canceller negates effects and not activation as evidenced by this ruling....

You can chain "Call of the Haunted" to a Spell Card, and Special Summon "Spell Canceller", to negate the effect of the Spell Card.

I'm thinking that Horus is the same way with spell card EFFECTS. It's not the activation of the spell card Horus is uneffected by...it's the effect that he bypasses.

It IS a good question though and causes us to take another look at a number of cards and how they actually work.
 
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At question he is, whether or not a unactivated Spell Card can be considered to affect a Monster who is unaffected by Spell Cards.


If you look at Ojamagic, it actually activates in the Graveyard, but cannot be chained to by cards that would negate its activation.

A Spell Card sent to the Graveyard by Diamond Dudes effect never activates.

Further more, how do you rule on the effect of Cost Down on Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6? In hand, he would be reduced to a Level 4 Monster. Once he hits the field, would he become a Level 6 again, or remain a Level 4?

I think if this question is answered, it will ultimately answer the question of whether the Spell Card or the effect is actively controlling the situation.
 
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The way I see it, "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" is being destroyed by the effect of "Diamond Dude", not "Smashing Ground". I say he's destroyed...
 
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I'm going to actually say that "Horus LV6" will not be destroyed.

He's unaffected by Spell Cards. Period. That includes the effects of Spell Cards.

You are not activating the effect of "Diamond Dude" when you use the effect of the Spell Card. "Diamond Dude"s effect simply allows you to use the effect of that Spell Card w/o having to physically activate the card. It's still the effect of that Spell Card being used.


And for what woo0 asked. I'd say that "Horus LV6" will revert back to 6 stars as soon as he hits the field. The level reduction is not a condition, but part of the effect of "Cost Down".



Just my thoughts.
 
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Kyhotae said:
The way I see it, "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" is being destroyed by the effect of "Diamond Dude", not "Smashing Ground". I say he's destroyed...
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Thats a theory I guess, although I don't see it as being backed up by anything I've ever seen on any UDE site or anything I've seen them print.

If I shoot a gun though, and you die, did the bullet kill you or did the gun?
 
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Kyhotae said:
The way I see it, "Horus the Black Flame Dragon LV6" is being destroyed by the effect of "Diamond Dude", not "Smashing Ground". I say he's destroyed...
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But it's not Diamond Dude's effect. His only effect is to use the effect of Spell Cards.

This isnt like "Dark Deal", where the effect of the Spell Card is replaced by Dark Deal's effect.

Diamond Dude doesnt take on the effect. He merely makes it active on a upcoming turn.


John Danker said:
Thats a theory I guess, although I don't see it as being backed up by anything I've ever seen on any UDE site or anything I've seen them print.

If I shoot a gun though, and you die, did the bullet kill you or did the gun?
Click to expand...
All three.... "Cause and Effect".
 
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It has to be the effect of something. It can't be the effect of nothing in particular. All effects have a decided origin, this is what determines how the effect interacts with others. Just like there's no such things as "just an Equip Card", there's no such thing as "just an effect".

That being said, all rulings point to the effect of the Spell Card being activated, not an Effect Monster. "Activating that Spell Card's effect during your next turn is not activating 'Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude's' effect at that time.", "You cannot chain 'Divine Wrath' to the activation of the Normal Spell Card's effect during the next Main Phase", "You can choose not to activate the Normal Spell Card during your next turn if you do not want to", "The Normal Spell Card's effect activates in the Graveyard. So its effect will not be negated by 'Spell Canceller'", "If the Normal Spell Card is no longer in your Graveyard during your next turn, you cannot activate its effect", "If 'Swords of Revealing Light' is sent to the Graveyard by this effect you can activate it..."

Horus should be immune to this effect.
 
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masterwoo0 said:
All three.... "Cause and Effect".
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That serves its purpose in the real world. But we can't always use that for the TCG. Otherwise we could say Horus is not destroyed, because he was destroyed by a decision from a representaive of Konmai and not a Spell Card Effect. ;)
 
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John Danker said:
If I shoot a gun though, and you die, did the bullet kill you or did the gun?
Click to expand...

Neither. It's the effect of the bullet that killed me. Of course, you also didn't mention if you specifically targeted me or not.

I'm sorry guys, I just couldn't resist :D

<runs away>
 
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djp952 said:
Neither. It's the effect of the bullet that killed me. Of course, you also didn't mention if you specifically targeted me or not.

I'm sorry guys, I just couldn't resist :D

<runs away>
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Methinks that evil Dark Magician is turning you into a devil's advocate.

And to stay on topic, I would tend to agree that Horus LV6 will not be affected by the Diamond Duded Spell card. And I agree that Horus LV8 must negate the activation of the Spell card, which wouldn't be happening if sent to the Graveyard by Diamond Dude.

And guns don't kill people... people kill people ;)
 
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Im siding with Horus being destroyed, as the rulings for D-Dude clearly state that the only thing D-Dude is doing is activating the effect.

For me the effect and the activation of the spell card itself are 2 different things.
 
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John Danker said:
Thats a theory I guess, although I don't see it as being backed up by anything I've ever seen on any UDE site or anything I've seen them print.

If I shoot a gun though, and you die, did the bullet kill you or did the gun?
Click to expand...

Actually it would be the hypovolemic blood loss that caused you to stop breathing and your heart to stop that killed you. The bullet was the CAUSE of the EFFECT of blood loss and the gun was the instrument used for the CAUSE. Sorry, line of work for me.
 
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slither said:
Im siding with Horus being destroyed, as the rulings for D-Dude clearly state that the only thing D-Dude is doing is activating the effect.

For me the effect and the activation of the spell card itself are 2 different things.
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Yeah, "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect is causing the whole thing in the first place. I still say it's his effect that doing the destroying. You wouldn't even be able to use the effect of the Spell Card if it wasn't for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect.
 
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Kyhotae said:
Yeah, "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect is causing the whole thing in the first place. I still say it's his effect that doing the destroying. You wouldn't even be able to use the effect of the Spell Card if it wasn't for "Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude"s effect.
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There it is right there. It's still the effect of the Spell card that's doing the destruction (or what have you). Diamond Dude is just the "middle man" for all intents and purposes.
 
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