Diamond Dude / Horus LV6

J

John Danker

Administrator
I saw an interesting discussion on another site concerning a scenario such as this...

Diamond Dude's effect is activated and the normal card flipped up is Smashing Ground.

The next turn the only monster on the opponent's side of the field is Horus LV6....is it destroyed?

It was an interesting conversation and showed (although we already know this) how confusing the card text is on a number of cards such as Spell Caneler, Jinzo, Diamond Dude, Horus LV6 and 8.
 
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Jathro said:
There it is right there. It's still the effect of the Spell card that's doing the destruction (or what have you). Diamond Dude is just the "middle man" for all intents and purposes.
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So why is it that you can't chain Magic Jammer/Drain, Cursed Seal, etc.?
 
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You can't activate those cards due to the fact that their requirements for activation are when you activate a spell card. Diamond Dude never actually "activates" the effect, it only "resolves" the effect during your next main phase.

What Diamond Dude is doing here, IMO, is revealing a "new" or long standing mechanic of the game that has seen little light before, the activation of the card and the resolution or even "activation" of the effect are two far separate things in the game.

One analogy I've seen that sort of helps understand some of these things are a few cards like Ectoplasmer and Wave Motion Cannon. Once the cards have been activated, their secondary effects resolve at a later date, far beyond any oppportunity cards like Magic Jammer/Drain have to negate them. In a similar regard, Diamond Dude is "activating" the effect early on, but waiting until later to resolve the effect. Since Dude is an effect monster, Magic Jammer/Drain is out of luck. You have to resort to Divine Wrath instead. 8^D
 
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We've actually had this ruling before regarding Double Spell. They both do the same thing, albeit, at different times, so it affects chaining requirements, but I don't see them as all that dissimilar. These affects are not like Serial Spell, which is mimicking the effect of another card. These cards are activating the effect of another card remotely. Your in the resolution of a Spell Card effect with Diamond Dude, not a Monster Effect, as Diamond Dude is not copying anything.
 
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slither said:
Well the problem I see is that Horus is unaffected by Spell Cards, not Spell Effects, so I still say Horus gets destroyed.
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Sounds like a good point. It doesnt say anything about Spell "Effects" on Horus' text box. Of course, it could be a matter of semantics, but this IS Yugioh....

How does the old saying go? "The Devil is in the explaining!!"
 
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Horus LV6 doesn't stop a spell card from being activated, once the card is activated it's an empty shell, it's the effect that Horus LV6 ignores, not the spell card itself or the activation.
 
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John Danker said:
Horus LV6 doesn't stop a spell card from being activated, once the card is activated it's an empty shell, it's the effect that Horus LV6 ignores, not the spell card itself or the activation.
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That may be but, Wildheart vs Threatning Roar challenges this.
 
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John Danker said:
How does Wildheart challenge this?
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What he is saying is (and I know we never really got a answer that I can remember), Wildheart is unaffected by Threatening Roar once the effect is present on the field. He should still be able to attack.

You said that a Spell Card becomes a "empty shell" once the card is played, and the effect is what would be affecting Horus, not the Spell Card.

So, he's only saying that the same (seemingly) applies to Wildheart vs the effect of Threatening Roar.

Is he, or is he NOT, affected. That's the challenge.
 
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The last unoffical ruling I heard on this (and someone who may have been there correct me if I'm mistaken please) was that Dan ruled in a SJC that Wildheart may not attack after Threatening Roar has been activated.
 
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I'll second that. I was at the SJC Long Beach when he said that one. I then turned and asked him about a reversal Swords / Messenger of Peace and Horus LV 6 since both those cards indicate the player not being able to declare an attack but he said "nope." We were getting to get things started so I really didn't have time to push him further on the issue 8^D I'd like to discuss it again sometime 8^D
 
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John Danker said:
The last unoffical ruling I heard on this (and someone who may have been there correct me if I'm mistaken please) was that Dan ruled in a SJC that Wildheart may not attack after Threatening Roar has been activated.
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Ok, just so everybody knows. "Wildheart" cannot attack after "Threatening Roar" has been activated because "Threatening Roar" affects the Player and not the Monster. Like "Waboku" affects Battle Damage and not the Monster. Don't even try to bring up "Swords of Revealing Light" because the latest errata has put the text back to affecting the Monsters and not the players. Please don't make me post it.

Hope this helps!
 
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skey23 said:
Ok, just so everybody knows. "Wildheart" cannot attack after "Threatening Roar" has been activated because "Threatening Roar" affects the Player and not the Monster. Like "Waboku" affects Battle Damage and not the Monster. Don't even try to bring up "Swords of Revealing Light" because the latest errata has put the text back to affecting the Monsters and not the players. Please don't make me post it.

Hope this helps!
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Fine i'll bring up the other cards:

Toll says: Each player must pay 500 Life Points to declare an attack.

Gravekeeper's Servant says: Unless your opponent sends 1 card from the top of his/her Deck to the Graveyard, he/she cannot declare an attack.

http://lists.upperdeck.com/read/messages?id=5206 and the ruling is that Horus LV 6 ignores those cards.

Or how about Card Destruction: You and your opponent discard your entire hands and draw the same number of cards from your respective Decks that you discarded.

Yet the cards are considered to be discarded by a "card effect" for the purpose of Dark World monsters, for example.

"A player" is meaningless. The judge list link explains that monsters declare attacks, and so it doesn't matter that threatening roar says "a player."
 
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We've been through the Threatening Roar / Wildheart thing from so many angles already, just about anyone can justify in their own mind why it should be ruled one way or the other (as with many thing in this game) We could again argue this point until we're blue in the face....but lets not huh? Lets just go by how it was last ruled by UDE officals until they make an official statement otherwise?....and the more I see this topic discussed with Horus LV6 and Diamond Dude I'm thinking it's of the same arguable state until it's addressed by UDE.
 
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Digital Jedi said:
That serves its purpose in the real world. But we can't always use that for the TCG. Otherwise we could say Horus is not destroyed, because he was destroyed by a decision from a representaive of Konmai and not a Spell Card Effect. ;)
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I came late to the discussion, but does this mean that you can "activate the effect of Kevin Tewart" ?
 
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masterwoo0 said:
What he is saying is (and I know we never really got a answer that I can remember), Wildheart is unaffected by Threatening Roar once the effect is present on the field. He should still be able to attack.

You said that a Spell Card becomes a "empty shell" once the card is played, and the effect is what would be affecting Horus, not the Spell Card.

So, he's only saying that the same (seemingly) applies to Wildheart vs the effect of Threatening Roar.

Is he, or is he NOT, affected. That's the challenge.
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This is what I was saying =P...

So going back to my previous point as well, Spell Card and Spell Effect are 2 different things.
 
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