diamond dude versus beginning of the end

W

woltarr

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The Beginning of the End
Group: Spell Card
Type: Spell
Level:0
Atk: 0
Def: 0
Activate only if there are 7 or more DARK monsters in your Graveyard. Remove from play 5 DARK monsters from your Graveyard to draw 3 cards.


my grave has to have 5 dark monsters in order to activate a "beginning of the end" activated trough the effct of d hero diamond dude?

my initial reasoning were YES because i though "remove 5 dark monsters " were part of the effct

however i found this on the NETREPS/RONIN

"• Removing from play 5 DARK monsters from your Graveyard is a cost to activate this card"


PLMK


WOLTARR
 
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As the ruling says, the removal of the monsters is a cost. Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude doesn't copy costs, only effects, and the only effect here is "draw 3 cards". So that's all you'd do.

Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude said:
• Since you are only activating the Normal Spell Card's effect, and not the Normal Spell Card itself, you do not pay costs and you do not have to meet any activation requirements. For example, you would not pay 1000 Life Points for "Confiscation", or discard 1 card for "Monster Reincarnation", or need a "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" on the field to activate the effect of "Burst Stream of Destruction".
Click to expand...
The Beginning of the End said:
• Removing from play 5 DARK monsters from your Graveyard is a cost to activate this card.
Click to expand...
 
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"Remove from play 5 DARK monsters from your Graveyard to draw 3 cards. "

there is no separation between cost and effct; how come the cost IS NOT part of the efcct the way we see with "pot of avarice"?

please explain this

woltarr
 
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It's the latest style of wording. If you're told to do something "to" do something, then the first part is the cost and the second part the effect.

The translations tend to focus more on the effects being "chatty" rather than being accurate, easy to understand or even at all correct. That's why Konami is rubbish.

Pot of Avarice's first sentence is the cost, and the second sentence (both the returning and the drawing) is the effect, as you well know. It's written the way it is because it's being "chatty" again. There really is no consistent style of writing effects, which is a huge problem. But Konami don't seem to care, so they carry on with it anyway.
 
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Pot of Avarice
Group: Spell Card
Type: Spell
Level:0
Atk: 0
Def: 0
Select 5 Monster Cards from your Graveyard, then add them to your Deck and shuffle it. After that, draw 2 cards from your Deck.

as u can see the select and shuflle are in the first part of the sentence

them you have the draw part alone

since there IS a separation why i cant use diamond dude on it and simply draw 2 cards?

thats bull crap you know? UDE wants us to be slaved my RONIN instead of leting us thinking for ourselves

wolatrr
 
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I was going off the text in RONIN (quoted), which apparently is not the proper text (even though it's better). I've let Dillie-O know.

RONIN said:
Pot of Avarice
Normal Spell
Select 5 Monster Cards in your Graveyard. Return those cards to the Deck, then draw 2 cards.
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This is nothing more nor less than a case of bad wording. This children's card game is fraught with such horrible examples. We just have to learn what the cards actually do, and accept that Konami is rubbish.

For any given card, its wording is most likely wrong in some way, so you can't use it as a good excuse for arguing against a ruling. Konami doesn't know how to work card games, and they apparently don't even try to find out - they certainly don't listen to the good advice from UDE (who do know the ways of card games). Two cards that do the same thing are given different wordings, and two cards that do different things are given identical wordings. It's just Konami being useless.



In the General Discussion (YGO) section there is the very beginnings of a project called the Simple Texts Project. It aims to rewrite all the card texts such that they say what they mean and very clearly mean what they do. We were promised a new section for it, and it may arrive at some point. It's a big task, but I'm sure it'll be invaluable once it's done. It'll be moderated, not an "anyone can edit" wiki-type thing, so the simple texts will be trustworthy.
 
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Actually Maruno, yours is the correct text....from the UDE Card Reference file:

Pot of Avarice​
​
​
​
​
EEN-EN037, CP01-EN011, DR04-EN097, SD10-
EN030​

Spell
Select 5 Monster Cards in your Graveyard. Return those cards to the
Deck, then draw 2 cards.​
 
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Currently "that point" is Oct 2, 2008. I'm sure that a few weeks after the new set comes out there will be another update. Still, I haven't had too much use for it, other than confirming RONIN (like here). ;-D
 
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Maruno said:
Pot of Avarice's first sentence is the cost, and the second sentence (both the returning and the drawing) is the effect, as you well know.
Click to expand...

Cost is Completely Different From Activation Requirement and Targeting. Pot of Avarice has an Activation Requirement, it Targets 5 cards in the grave and the effect of drawing 2 cards only happens if you fulfill the condition of returning the targeted 5 cards to the deck.

A Cost is a Payment of Some Sort where a loss of 1 or more card(s) occurs to the Activator of the Card Effect or through the Payment of Life Points or both, which is paid after the card is flipped face-up/declared as activating its effect/placed face-up on the field and, before the card effect is placed onto the chain...If the cost cannot be paid, then the card effect cannot be activated in the first place. The Cost which is Paid cannot be Refunded even if the "Activation of the Card" is Negated!

Just like how Thestalos will not inflict damage if the discarded card is not sent to the "graveyard"..., it is a condition and not a cost but the discarding of a card is a part of the effect of Thestalos, same way Pot of Avarice will not allow you to draw two cards unless the "5 Targeted Cards" are returned to the deck! and this a part of the effect of POA and a condition that must be fulfilled in order to draw 2 cards :)

Enjoy!

~ Lord Sesshoumaru
 
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Mmm, I'm not certain that "condition" is the right word, but everything else is correct. It seems that some multiple card effects are All-or-Nothing, while others are Resolve-as-Much-as-Possible. While it makes sense to say that a second effect is conditional on the first effect resolving corectly, the term "condition" in YuGiOh! TCG has a fairly narrow definition as a game mechanic. Usually the rulings will bear these out. Most frequently the cards in question will have a "." or a ", then" before the second effect. Unfortunately that is not always the case. Hmmm, a list would be good. Especially since templating is so inconsistant.
 
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Sesshoumaru ~ As Logician says, I think you're using the term "activation requirement" incorrectly. It is defined in the game as "a situation that must exist in order for you to activate a card or effect". It's like "you need to control "Toon World" in order to Summon this monster" (a Summoning condition, which is the same kind of thing) or "you can only activate this card when you control "People Running About"".

There's a difference between activation conditions and being able to do what the card says. You could say that Pot of Avarice has the activation condition that you need 5 monsters in your Graveyard, but that's superfluous. The rules of the game state you can't activate a card that will do nothing (or that you can't perform if it were to resolve right then), so you simply cannot activate Pot of Avarice if you don't have 5 monsters in your Graveyard. There's no need to also call that clause an activation requirement.

Otherwise, what you said is right, if a little hard to read.


Maruno said:
In the General Discussion (YGO) section there is the very beginnings of a project called the Simple Texts Project. It aims to rewrite all the card texts such that they say what they mean and very clearly mean what they do. We were promised a new section for it, and it may arrive at some point. It's a big task, but I'm sure it'll be invaluable once it's done. It'll be moderated, not an "anyone can edit" wiki-type thing, so the simple texts will be trustworthy.
Click to expand...
This will have standard templating for card effects, and will make obvious what is an All-Or-Nothing effect and what is a Resolve-As-Much-As-Possible effect. If people work on it, of course. I think we're waiting on a new section for it before it can proceed as best it can (although some work can still be done on it now, of course). I'm a little distracted by my Deck Masters at the moment (very few of them are keeping the exact same Abilities, let alone the same wordings for them), so I've neglected the STP myself.
 
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