Diamond Dude

[ChaosMachine]

How would these cards be played if I used them from the graveyard thru Diamond Dudes effect. Shallow Grave. Pot of Avarice. Spell Reproduction (the one i really want to know)


Thanks again to you guys for your help.

 

[Fury]

The Shallow Grave:
activation: both players target 1 monster in their grave (turn player first)
resolution: the monsters are special summoned face-down.

Pot of Avarice:
activation: you target 5 monsters in your grave
resolution: you shuffle them back to your deck, draw 2 cards

Spell Reproduction:
activation: target 1 spell card in your graveyard
resolution: add it to your hand

After selecting the targets your opponent can chain to the effect.

 

[skey23]

Actually, you can't chain anything when the effect of the Spell Card is activated.

 

[Fury]

Here is the ruling that I based my assumption on:

Since the Spell Card itself is not activated (only its effect is), your opponent cannot chain "Magic Jammer", "Dark Deal", "Barrel Behind the Door" or any other card that has to be chained to the activation of a Spell Card.

It doesnt say you cant chain at all. If says you cant chain cards that require the activation of a spell card. You wouldnt be able to chain those to Wave-Motion Cannon's effect either, because you are only activating its effect. But you still can chain with other things.

EDIT:
I didnt find anything in the FAQ or Judge's list that says you cant chain to it.

EDIT2: There are many cards that activate their effects in the grave and you can chain to all of them.
e.g.

If you have 2 "Destiny Hero - Dasher" in your Graveyard, and you activate "Reload" during your Draw Phase and draw 2 or more Monster Cards, you can activate the effects of both "Destiny Hero - Dashers" in a chain.

In case of this spell you are activating its effect, and after activation your opponent can always chain, why should this be different?

 

[DarkLogicianOfCaos]

Think of it in the terms of Last Will. An effect is being activated which basically has no sorce. Therefore, how can you chain anything to it. Once Last Will has been activated, whenever you decide to Special Summon your Monster, there is nothing there to chain to. It is the same for Diamond Dude. The card in the Graveyard is not activating (it is just there for reference). Nor is Diamond Dude "activating" the card, so there is nothing to chain to.

Let's look at your Barrel Behind the Door
"You can only activate this card when an effect that inflicts damage to your Life Points is activated (except Battle Damage). Switch the Effect Damage you receive to your opponent's Life Points."

This does not specify Spell Card, but the activation of an effect. Why can you not chain to it? Because you cannot chain to an effect that is being activated by Diamond Dude from the Graveyard.

 

[ChaosMachine]

Guys I mean as far as activating the cards effect and not having to worry about the neeeded cost or conditions.

 

[Fury]

You cannot activate "Barrel Behind the Door" against a Continuous Spell or Trap Card, an Equip Spell Card, or a Field Spell Card. So you cannot activate it against "Magical Thorn", "Dark Snake Syndrome", "Wave-Motion Cannon", or "Black Pendant".

So you cant activate it against effects of spells/traps even though the text says that. Weird. Also a bad example in this case.

Anyway, it could work like Last Will, but you dont activate the effect of Last Will just resolve it. (The rulings say you apply it, or use the state.)
In case of DH-DD's spell you are activating the effect of said card. You select the targets at activation for example. So it's not only a resolution (not only because its rulings all say "activate the effect").

Like I said there is nothing in the rulings or the list.

Based on the text alone you could chain to it.

What's also weird is that you cant activate Curse of Fiend. Even though you only activate the effect, and switching modes has nothing to do with phases. A real oddball.

 

[EmeraldDragon]

lets try and do it this way.

Fury you dont activate the effect you just resolve the effect. If you activated the effect you would be forced to pay the cost of the effect.

And as for curse of feind the text says it can only be activated in the standby phase at the end thus making it a part of the effect albeit a very restrictive part of the effect but part of it all the same.

 

[Fury]

The cost is for activating the card not the effect. Same with activation conditions - only when you activate the card. That's the whole point.

PS: Oh, and all its rulings say: "activate the effect of the spell card".

I dont want to quote all the rulings and bold the "activate" word in all of them, but if it's necessary I will do it

 

[EmeraldDragon]

I eally gotta stop speeding through my replies. Well its like this if we activated the card wed pay the cost and get the effect and the activation of the card would be chained to. Here its more of a lingering condition kinda like power bonds dealing damage. The only difference is ya can choose to ignore it and move on.

Now if ya wanna do something because of the spell cards effect you may respond to whatever it does if you so wish but ya cant chain to it in order to stop the effect from happening.

 

[Fury]

The talk is not about stopping it. The talk is about chaining to it. You cant chain to Last Will, and I think you cant chain to Power Bond either. Because they only resolve.

But here the effect of the spell IS activated per the text and rulings.

e.g. I have Vorse Raider and face-down ring and MST. You have Royal Decree, 1900 LP and you want to activate the effect of Smashing Ground from the grave.
link1: smashing
link2: ring my Vorse Raider
link3: mst on Royal Decree.
Resolution:
I win - but that's not the point. The point is it creates a chain link I can chain to.

EDIT: Ok, I misread your post a little, sorry. The example is near pointless I know. However I still stand by the card text and rulings and say it activates and creates a chain link.

 

[Tkwiget]

First of all, the reason you can't chain Barrel Behind the Door to Wave-Motion Cannon's effect is because Counter Traps (besides Negate Attack) have to directly be chained to or activated in response to the previous action. The only way Barrel could work with Wave Motion is if Wave Motion did damage immediately when it resolves. However, that isn't the case.

In the case of chaining cards to the activation of the Spell Card's Effect, you can. This is because you can chain to the effects of already existing effects that come from card effects and not card activations. Meaning, effect activation and not card activation in this case.

So in an example of Diamond Dude sending Smashing Ground to the Graveyard, the opposing player could chain something like Book of Moon or Enemy Controller to cause a different out come. Book of Moon turning what Smashing would have killed face down and Enemy Controller tributing it off for Diamond Dude where Smashing would then kill Diamond Dude.

 

[Fury]

1) Thanks, that you agree with me on the effect being a link.

2) I know the rulings on BBtD. But its text says:

You can only activate this card when an effect that inflicts damage to your Life Points is activated (except Battle Damage).

So it says effect. It doesnt say when a card is activated.

When I activate the effect of WMC, you can chain to it. You could chain BBtH by the card text, because it is chained to "an effect that inflicts damage". Only the rulings alone prevent me from doing so.

Plus, by the card text you couldnt chain it to Hinotama for example. Because you would chain it to the activation of a card, and not the activation of an effect.

i.e. the text of this card is bad. It doesnt say what it does. Without the rulings we wouldnt play it this way.

 

[Tkwiget]

Counter Traps have to respond or activate directly to what it can be activated against. Barrel has to chain to a card that will immediately inflict effect damage when it resolves. WMC doesn't do that. It will inflict effect damage much later on and the mechanics behind Counter Traps (in this case Barrel) already are established that it can't chain to effect activations, only card activations. That further proves why you can't chain Barrel to the effect of WMC.

If the card doesn't inflict effect damage when it resolves when it's initially activated, then you can't chain Barrel to it. The rulings under Barrel pretty much explain how the card works in a "black and white" fashion. At least to me anyway.

 

[cuzwbd]

i just wanted to be clear.... you cannot chain to the effect - but you CAN respond to the effect - just like responding to the resolution of last will's effect (of summoning a monster) with torrential tribute or bottomless trap hole
seems easy - but i find myself fascinated by diamond dude but reluctant to play him because i'm unclear as to how he works... my minor dabblings have been frustrating to say the least - clear answers are few and far between....the diamond dude turbo is therefore, quite an interesting concept....

 

[Tkwiget]

i just wanted to be clear.... you cannot chain to the effect - but you CAN respond to the effect - just like responding to the resolution of last will's effect (of summoning a monster) with torrential tribute or bottomless trap hole
seems easy - but i find myself fascinated by diamond dude but reluctant to play him because i'm unclear as to how he works... my minor dabblings have been frustrating to say the least - clear answers are few and far between....the diamond dude turbo is therefore, quite an interesting concept....

Huh?

"Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude" doesn't actually activate the Normal Spell card itself. Instead, he just activates its effect. So the Spell Card remains in the Graveyard.
Since you are only activating the Normal Spell Card's effect, and not the Normal Spell Card itself, you do not pay costs and you do not have to meet any activation requirements. For example, you would not pay 1000 Life Points for "Confiscation", or discard 1 card for "Monster Reincarnation", or need a "Blue-Eyes White Dragon" on the field to activate the effect of "Burst Stream of Destruction".
Since the Spell Card itself is not activated (only its effect is), your opponent cannot chain "Magic Jammer", "Dark Deal", "Barrel Behind the Door" or any other card that has to be chained to the activation of a Spell Card.
Those rulings kind of imply that you're wrong. You can chain to the effect activation of cards even if it isn't the card activation. There isn't a responce point.


So....

My Diamond Dude sends my Smashing Ground to the Graveyard. During my next turn I choose to activate the effect of Smashing Ground to kill your face up monster. You decide to chain to the effect activation of Smashing Ground with Enemy Controller and tribute your only monster to the Graveyard to take control of my Diamond Dude. Smashing Ground's effect resolves and destroys my Diamond Dude.

I already explained this and that was the second time.

 

[Fury]

Barrel has to chain to a card that will immediately inflict effect damage when it resolves.

Yes, but that's not what the card text says. It's what the rulings say.

the mechanics behind Counter Traps (in this case Barrel) already are established that it can't chain to effect activations, only card activations.

Again. That's not what the card text says. It's what the rulings say.

Also you can chain BBtD to Cannon Soldier's effect, and you are not chaining to a card activation but an effect activation. Same with Divine Wrath.

The point of this and my earlier post is, that the text doesnt say what it does. It could need a corrected text.

Ok, I give one:

You can only activate this card when a Spell or Trap Card or the effect of a monster that inflicts Effect Damage to your Life Points is activated. Switch the Effect Damage you receive to your opponent's Life Points.

 

[Tkwiget]

There's a reason why we have rulings and judges in this game. Barrel Behind the Door is just one card of many that require rulings and judges to explain it to people.

You can't look at a card and instantly understand how it functions without first looking over the rulings it has.

And I do disagree with you on Barrel needing a card errata.

You can only activate this card when an effect that inflicts damage to your Life Points is activated (except Battle Damage). Switch the Effect Damage you receive to your opponent's Life Points.

An effect can be effect activation (mainly monster cards though in this case) or card activation. Doesn't matter. Now apply regular Counter Trap mechanics. That's pretty much how "black and white" I see it. Your card errata of Barrel Behind means the same exact thing as its current card text, just with more words.

Anything else you want to talk about? Because I'm already bored with this current topic about Barrel Behind the Door.

 

[Fury]

I dont want to beat the dead dog, but I'm like that sorry. I try to make it short.

If a card needs less rulings because its text is more accurate, than I think that's a good thing.

There are 5 activations (if there are more please tell me):
A. monster effect activation
B. spell card activation
C. spell effect activation
D. trap card activation
E. trap effect activation

BBtD's current text says: A, C, E.
The rulings say: A, B, D.
My new text says: A, B, D.

So why isnt the new text better? It would need less rulings.

 

[drzero7]

Yeah, overall, once Diamond Dude does the lingering effect of the spell card that's send from deck the grave, the only way to counter it and NOT make the effect kick is to

#1: use Divine Wrath the moment Diamond Dude trys to use it's effect.
#2: Remove the spell card that was sent to the graveyard out of there.

Anyway, I also noticed something.

Pot of Avarice's effect of sending 5 monster cards from grave to deck isn't a cost, but part of the effect. So Diamond Dude does not ignore that. you still have to send 5 cards from grave to deck to draw 2 cards.

And I think cards like Metamorphosis end up being dead to diamond dude, since it doesn't have the tribute needed for the reference to select the proper fusion monster. (Since the tribute is a cost)

And if I'm correct, Monster Gate tribute is also a cost, so Diamond Dude ignores that too right?