Diamond Dude

[ChaosMachine]

How would these cards be played if I used them from the graveyard thru Diamond Dudes effect. Shallow Grave. Pot of Avarice. Spell Reproduction (the one i really want to know)


Thanks again to you guys for your help.

 

[drzero7]

Yeah, in the anime. Bubbleman is broken cause as long as you have no cards on the field, you can special summon him and then draw 2 cards. (In the actual card game, it must be both field AND hand with no cards but bubbleman)

 

[Fury]

The thing you are missing is actually what I'm saying the whole time. You posted rulings, and not the card text.

Do you people have a problem with me using the words "card text"? Is there anything wrong with them, or what?

And we all know that Counter Traps can only negate the effect if it's the adjacent link in the chain.

No one questioned this in the entire thread.

 

[Jathro]

What problem do you have with the wording? Seems pretty clear to me. And card text alone isn't always enough. The fact that it's a Counter Trap (as opposed to say Pikeru's Circle of Enchantment, as masterwoo0 pointed out) is of the utmost important.

That's why I mentioned the ruling that Counter Traps must be the next link in the chain in order to negate the effect. Pikeru's Circle of Enchantment creates a state of sorts, preventing effect damage for the turn. Barrel Behind the Door must be activated in response to one card effect inflicting effect damage.

 

[Maruno]

And we all know that Counter Traps can only negate the effect if it's the adjacent link in the chain.

No one questioned this in the entire thread.

If you're thinking about Vanity's Call or Negate Attack, Jathro stated there were a couple of exceptions (which are clearly said to be exceptions either in the card text or in rulings).

 

[Fury]

I keep repeating myself but I dont have any better idea.

BBtD's text says you can only activate it against effects that activate and deal damage.
- When I send WMC to the grave, am I activating an effect that deals damage?
- Yes, I do.
- Can you chain BBtD to it to redirect the damage.
- No, you cant.
- Why?
- Because even thought the card text says "activation of effect" the rulings say "activation of a card" in case of Spells and Traps.

Conclusion: the rulings and the card text say different things.

 

[Jathro]

I keep repeating myself but I dont have any better idea.

BBtD's text says you can only activate it against effects that activate and deal damage.
- When I send WMC to the grave, am I activating an effect that deals damage?
- Yes, I do.

No, you're fulfilling a cost. Check the first ruling for Wave-Motion Cannon.

 

[Fury]

Yeah, the cost for activating the effect (duh).
Like sending 1 card back to the deck with Card Trader.

Anyway, I'll rephrase that:
- When I activate the effect of WMC and send it to the grave as a cost, am I activating an effect that deals damage?
- Yes, I do.

 

[masterwoo0]

Yeah, the cost for activating the effect (duh).
Like sending 1 card back to the deck with Card Trader.

Anyway, I'll rephrase that:
- When I activate the effect of WMC and send it to the grave as a cost, am I activating an effect that deals damage?
- Yes, I do.

No, you are not activating the effect. Wave-Motion Cannon has already been activated. You are now paying the cost to transfer the amount of passed Standby Phases as Effect Damage to your Opponent.

 

[Fury]

Well, if you dont know the difference between activating a spell card, and activating the effect of a spell card then I'm not the one who will teach it to you. I'm not a teacher-type anyway.

Read some rulings for various continuous spells at netrep.net and hopefully you'll find it out by yourself.

 

[masterwoo0]

Well, if you dont know the difference between activating a spell card, and activating the effect of a spell card then I'm not the one who will teach it to you. I'm not a teacher-type anyway.

Read some rulings for various continuous spells at netrep.net and hopefully you'll find it out by yourself.

I know the difference. It's you that doesnt. Barrel can only chain to a Spell or Trap Card that is on the field. Wave-Motion Cannon has to be active for at least one turn before it can deal any Damage. When you send it to the Graveyard, what card activation are you chaining Barrel Behind the Door to? That is the reason you cannot chain Magic Jammer.

Can you use Barrel Behind the Door against Ectoplasmer? What about Dark Room of Nightmare? Those cause Effect Damage also.

Wave-Motion Cannon is "resolving" its effect when you send it to the Graveyard.

 

[Jathro]

As masterwoo0 pointed out, you're not activating the effect of Wave-Motion Cannon. You're sending it to the Graveyard to fulfill its cost. And obviously costs cannot be negated. The problem doesn't lie in the card text of Barrel Behind the Door. Barrel just wants to redirect an effect that inflicts damage. Sending Wave-Motion Cannon to the Graveyard does indeed inflict damage, but its due to the cost of having it on the field for 'x' number of turns, and not because its being activated at that time.

 

[densetsu_x]

This is almost insane over the amount of specific nit-picking over card text and absolute refusal to just take how the rulings are and leave it at that.

First of all, blame the translations on some of them. That's what you have to deal with when things come out of Japan first where the interpretation is left open sometimes (see "Pulling the Rug" and why it was errata-ed just after release).

Second, blame the overuse of the word "Activation". When it comes to Counter-Traps there's only 1 Activation point that they are referring to: Whenever a Spell/Trap is placed face up on the field or whenever a player declares that he wishes to activate the effect of one of his monsters (or if an occurance happens that triggers the effect of a monster). Yes, there are other instances when we use "Activation" such as with "Ultimate Offering". In those cases though you are more "Using" the effect of the Continous Card. But the Initial Activation has long passed. Now that doesn't mean when an effect like that is used that it's not chainable (again, once Ultimate Offering is face up, you can chain the use of the card with itself).

So what's the difference between using a card like Pikeru's Circle of Enchantment vs. Barrel Behind the Door? Simple. Pikeru's doesn't have a timing requirement. Barrel does. With Barrel, you look for that moment of Initial Activation to see if Damage is guarenteed to be done. If so then yes you can chain it. That is why you cannot use it against Continuous Spell, Trap, and Monster effects since those don't inflict damage at that moment. They do so at different times later. It's why you also can't activate it against Ceasefire if say every monster is face down and/or all face-up monsters are Normals (because it could inflict 0 damage), or against Dice Jar (you could win the toss).

Past that, can't really help you if you don't like the wording on the card. However, the rulings are pretty direct and to the point (even with explaining why). Even in the case of this one:

"¢ [Re: Destiny Hero - Diamond Dude] Since the Spell Card itself is not activated (only its effect is), your opponent cannot chain "Magic Jammer", "Dark Deal", "Barrel Behind the Door" or any other card that has to be chained to the activation of a Spell Card.

And I know... I hear "card text" already. However, that ability to activate the effect of the spell card is basically a lingering state you choose to resolve, similar to "Last Will". Chainable yes, but not with Counter-Traps since (as already mentioned) they have a very specific window when they CAN be activated (Yes "Negate Attack" we see you back there, put your hand down, you're the red-haired stepchild of the group).

Now can this whole debate be put to rest since really it's just been nothing more than debating for the argument's sake and not really bringing any sort of enlightenment to the game.