Divine Wrath (Sinister Serpent/Dark Ruler Hades)

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DaGuyWitBluGlasses

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The information contained in this post is no longer valid. The rulings on the FAQ have changed. And thus all extrapolations are erroneous.




I believe we have our answer:

"You can activate "Divine Wrath" when "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" is Special Summoned by its own effect. If you do this, since its effect was negated by "Divine Wrath", "Sacred Phoenix of Nephthys" does not Special Summon itself by its effect again during your next Standby Phase, even though it was destroyed by a card effect (the effect of "Divine Wrath")."
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Thus: Divine Wrath does have a permanent negation ability like Dark Ruler Ha Des.

And: If you negate Sinister Serpent's effect, it will not be coming back during the next standby phase.

Unclarity: It appears Divine Wrath is negating the special summon effect of Sacred Phoenix, and not the trigger effect that happens when it is summoned that way.
But i can't say for certain.
If it is the former, then it means that cards can be destroyed while they are in the graveyard. If it is the latter than Divine Wraths permanet negation can apply to the whole monster card, and not just the effect it was countering.
 
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I think the reason "Helpoemer" is negated completely is because when "Helpoemer"'s Trigger Effect is negated by "Divine Wrath", it also affected the fact that the Trigger happens when he was sent to the Graveyard due to battle (because the Trigger is part of that condition). "Divine Wrath" not only negated the Trigger, but also negated the initial condition of the Trigger (being sent to the Graveyard due to battle).

"Sinister Serpent" is different because his Trigger Effect has no initial condition. It's just have to be in the Graveyard during your Stanby Phase to keep activating his effect.
 
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If that were true about "Sinister Serpent" then why is it's effect completely negated when destroyed and sent to the graveyard by either "Dark Balter the Terrible" or "Dark Ruler Ha Des"?

Both of those cards simply negate the effect of "Sinister Serpent" that allows it to return.

"Divine Wrath" not only negates the effect, but also destroys the monster as well. Since it can't destroy "Sinister Serpent" while it's in the Graveyard, it will/should still negate the returning effect. This negation 'should' not be any different than that of "Dark Balter" and "Dark Ruler", IMHO.
 
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skey23 said:
How is the continued negation of "Helpoemer"s effect a 'one-shot' deal?

Help me understand this.
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In my mind, the reason, as I posted above, is that when "Divine Wrath" negated "Helpoemer"'s Trigger Effect, it also affected the initial condition of "Helpoemer".

Here is what I said before:
[ycard="LOB-EN053" said:
Raigeki[/ycard]ck]I think the reason "Helpoemer" is negated completely is because when "Helpoemer"'s Trigger Effect is negated by "Divine Wrath", it also affected the fact that the Trigger happens when he was sent to the Graveyard due to battle (because the Trigger is part of that condition). "Divine Wrath" not only negated the Trigger, but also negated the initial condition of the Trigger (being sent to the Graveyard due to battle).

"Sinister Serpent" is different because his Trigger Effect has no initial condition. It's just have to be in the Graveyard during your Stanby Phase to keep activating his effect.
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I read and understand what you are saying, but here's my thinking.
Let's break down "Helpoemer" shall we.

"When this card has been sent to the Graveyard as a result of battle, this card's effect is activated."

So if he's in the Graveyard as a result of battle, the 'trigger' as you put it has already been satisfied. It wouldn't think it could be 'negated' cause it's already done and resolved.

"As long as this card exists in the Graveyard, your opponent discards 1 card randomly from his/her hand at the end of his/her Battle Phase."

Doesn't this sound like a continuous effect? So even if it was negated at one point to stop the discard, why would it be negated the rest of the time?

"Neither player can Special Summon this card from the Graveyard."

No issues here.


Just my thoughts.
 
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Hmmm...how about this....this supports what you're saying.

Ok, "Helpoemer"s effect is not optional. And since it says "As long as this card exists in the Graveyard", that's part of it's effect. So if the discard part of the effect is negated, then the entire effect is negated since the effect lasts the entire time he's in the Graveyard.

Sound good?
 
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Finally!
UDE's SPECIFIC CARD QUESTIONS & ANSWERS said:
After you negate the effect of "Sinister Serpent" with "Divine Wrath", your opponent can activate the effect of "Sinister Serpent" again to return it to his hand, even during the same Standby Phase.
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About time they gave us an answer. So Divine Wrath is a one off negation which has absolutely no lingering effect (other than the being destroyed part! ;) ), unlike Ha Des and Balter.
 
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I'd still like to know why Dark Ruler is able to negate Sinster Serpent even after it is removed from the field. It seems to me like rules are being created without any explination or reguard to game mancanics.

I still believe that Divine Wrath works on Dark Ruler. I looked up the "new" rulings on netrep.net which gets its info directly from yugioh-card.com, and I found nothing to support either claim.

The reason that I believe that Dark Ruler's effect can be chained to is that is must use a chain in order to reslove and negate the other monster's effect. This is because monster effects can activate before the damage step (although most dont reslove until this point, my point is that they are still active and waiting to reslove). Please note, that this is before Dark Ruler know whether or not it will be able to negate the effect. Thus, since the effect is already active, Dark Ruler must respond in chain in order to negate it since it does not negate the activation of effects (unless the text on this card was changed without my knowing about it), only the actual effects themselves.

This is the same thing that happens if I try to play a Spell Card while "Imperal Order" is face up on the field. My spell activates (Imperal does nothing to stop this) and then Imperal resonds in chain in order to negate its effect. This is why Spirtulasium (a spell card whose effect can't be negated by any other card work against Imperal, but not against Spell Canceler (a monster who said that Spell cards can't even be activated).

Becasue Dark Ruler has to activate in responce to something, it give you an opening in which to use Divine Wrath. I'll illustrate this with the following example:

1. Dark Ruler attacks a face down Man Eater Bug.

2. After all traps and Quick play spell are activated (if any) Man Eater Bug is fliped face up and its effect activates (although it must wait until after damage calculation in order to reslove.

3. Dark Ruler destroies Man Eater Bug. (This is where Dark Ruler fullfills its condition for activation, not where its effect itself activates. This is becasue if Man Eater Bug for example was protected by Wakboo, then Dark Ruler would not be able to negate its effect).

4. Man Eater Bug's effect now attempts to reslove. If it was destroied by Dark Ruler, the the following chain would occur
Step 1: Man Eater's effect targets Dark Ruler (or some other monster), and attemps to destory it.
Step 2. Dark Ruler's effect activates negating Man Eater Bug's effect.
This chain must occur since Man Eater's effect is already active (Just to note, if there ace any monster effect that occur and reslove before damage calculation then they would not be negated by Dark Ruler, since they have already resloved.

5. Any effects from monsters that activate in the graveyard would now activate. Please note that they actually have to activate in order for Dark Ruler to negate them since Dark Ruler can not (or at least should not) be able to negate effect before they are even activated.

We might also be able to take a lession from Divine Wrath that is useful there. Divine Wrath must be chained to an effect in order to negate it. Since it is the only other card at the moment that I know of the can negate effects I think that it should serve as a basis for how Dark Ruler works. If so, then since Divine Wrath can only negate graveyard effect after they have been activated, then Dark Ruler should be under the same limitation. It make no inherent sense that Dark Ruler can negate Sinister Serpent by placing a condition on it when Dark Ruler's text does not give it use power. All Dark Ruler says is that if it destories an effect monster as a result of a battle, then it will negate the effect of that effect monster (which of course can only occur after the effect of that monster has been activated.

P.S. Can anyone tell me why Dark Ruler was ruled to never allow Sinster Serpent to be able to activate? This makes now sense to me, and the only resaon I can think of at the moment is that Komei will it to be so.
 
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first off, Dark Ruler Ha Des never, ever activates, because he is continuous, so that's why he is immune to Divine Wrath

also, there will not be a chain when he attacks a flip effect monster, Dark Ruler Ha Des "prevents" the activation of the effect, period, he does not just shoot them down when they try, he doesn't let them even try to activate

Sinister Serpent continues to be negated because Dark Ruler Ha Des' negation is continuous, as i dark balters, so every time he tries to activate, since ha des destroyed him, he keeps getting stopped from activating

[/rant]
-chaosruler
 
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It's more like Dark Ruler says "negate the effects of Effect Monsters destroyed" and Divine Wrath says "Negate that effect and activation". Divine Wrath would only negate an instance of the effect, which is shown by the fact that it would negate the activation.

Oh, and Helpoemer's effect is negated permanently because it's a triggered effect that causes a lingering effect. Like Deck Devastation Virus. Which means if you negate the triggered effect, the lingering effect never came to be.

Like Deck Devastation Virus.
 
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Raijinili said:
It's more like Dark Ruler says "negate the effects of Effect Monsters destroyed" and Divine Wrath says "Negate that effect and activation". Divine Wrath would only negate an instance of the effect, which is shown by the fact that it would negate the activation.

Oh, and Helpoemer's effect is negated permanently because it's a triggered effect that causes a lingering effect. Like Deck Devastation Virus. Which means if you negate the triggered effect, the lingering effect never came to be.

Like Deck Devastation Virus.
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Perfectly said... as i have always thought.

Oh and it looks like you are correct about Sinister being a Cost Effect (errrr Ignition Effect), because if you can activate it again in the same Standby it seems like it is.
 
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