Divine Wrath vs. IFL

B

blade146

New Member
Ok say my opponent attacks my Tribe with IFL. In the damage step her effect is activated and I chain Divine Wrath. Ok now IFL is destroryed. Is damage still calculated?

I would say no but it is in the middle of the damage step.


Edit: I accidentally posted this in the wrong forum. Ment to post in in Rules and Regulations if a mod could move it appreciate it.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
Raijinili said:
densetsu_x said:
*Re-reads "Sinister Serpent"*

Well, that appears to be a trigger effect. So then you could use "Divine Wrath" against it. Thing is, you can always get it next standby phase.

- A
Click to expand...

It's a cost effect.  Also, unless it was fully negated, you can actually get it back the SAME standby phase.
Click to expand...
I definately disagree with that.

How in the world is it a cost effect since it is not manually activated? It is an optional trigger, and you should not be able to get it back in the same Standby. It would trigger for every instance of Sinister being in the graveyard during the Standby. You would have to somehow remove Sinister from the graveyard and place it back, in order to do it in the same Standby.

I'd really love to hear how it is a "cost effect" (even though that term really doesn't exist).

That's like saying the Vampire Lord is a cost effect, which it is not. These effects are event/existance triggered.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Latest message on the judge board says cost effects exist.

It's not an optional trigger because it's not triggered by the start of the standby phase. It can be activated any time during the standby phase.

And being in the graveyard is not a trigger. It's a condition. Getting SENT is a trigger. But that's not the case here.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Raijinili said:
Latest message on the judge board says cost effects exist.

It's not an optional trigger because it's not triggered by the start of the standby phase.  It can be activated any time during the standby phase.

And being in the graveyard is not a trigger.  It's a condition.  Getting SENT is a trigger.  But that's not the case here.
Click to expand...
Well no comment on the Judges List saying that "cost effects" exist, the term is definately a misnomer for sure.

I still do not agree, choosing when to activate in the case of the Standby is similar to placing triggers on the chain in a turn player order, the turn player chooses what order his/her effects are resolved in, that does not make them "cost effects".

Similarily, being in the graveyard is not the trigger in this case, it is the fact that you are in the Standby Phase that is the trigger. Similarily to how Lava Golem being face-up on the field during the Standby is also a trigger. Triggers are not always action oriented events but can also be existance related, and specific Phase related. The Standby Phase and the End Phase triggers are special in that they do not form a straight up chain, but create their own chains, in an order specified by the controller. That however does not make them cost effects.

I definately disagree with the JERP on this one.

In fact it is even written as an optional:

"During your Standby Phase, if a 'Sinister Serpent' exists in your Graveyard, you can return the 'Sinister Serpent' to your hand."

- "During the Standby Phase" is the trigger

- "if a 'Sinister Serpent' exists in you graveyard", is a condition

- "you can" is a choice to active.

It is actually and optional conditional trigger, if you want to get specific or technical about it. Even if the Standby Phase is not seen as a "true" trigger, it is still a conditional trigger, based on the existance of Sinister in your graveyard during that Phase.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Hi, I have a follow-up question on "Divine Wrath",

1. Kevin: "You can chain "Divine Wrath" to the effect of "The Creator"
(cost effect)" but now the UDE site says " "The Creator" is not a cost,
but part of the effect" can you check on this please?

2 Can "Thunder Dragon" and similar cards be stopped by "Divine Wrath"
if the effect is activated from the hand to the graveyard?
Looking at & reading previous posts, I'd like to check on this.
Thanks Mike MMW12002


Answer:

One association everyone needs work themselves free of:

Just because a Yu-Gi-Oh! TCG effect is called a "Cost Effect," does not mean that
it has a cost of activation.

Does make the name a bit weird, but its something we just have to work around.


"Cost Effects" are typically effects that can only be activated during a Main Phase
of your own turn. Sometimes they have a cost of activation and sometimes they don't.


"Thunder Dragon" is a Cost Effect. You can chain "Divine Wrath" to negate its effect.
(If you want to)

----------------------------------
Curtis Schultz
Official UDE Netrep
CurtisSchultz_Netrep@hotmail.com
Reply
Click to expand...
I would say, based on what is being said there, that Cost Effects do exist. I would prefer to call them "activated effects," which seems to be a more appropriate term for them, considering that you activate them. I'm not sure if you would be able to bring Sinister Serpent back during the same Standby Phase or not (or if it's a Cost Effect), though. Just thought I should point out that there are Cost Effects.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Well, what did you say that showed it wasn't simply a cost effect, rather than an optional trigger?

And cost effects were always called cost effects. As far as I know. At least, the JERP has always called it that.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
It is a conditional trigger, meaning conditions, when met, can trigger activations. Which is what is happening here in the case of Sinister.

Does that make more sense?

It does not have to be an action oreinted event.

It also becomes optional, because you still make a choice of whether you want to do it or not.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
=/ I think I'm going to have to side with Raijinili here. My original thinking was that it was an "activated effect" (or Cost Effect if you want to use the official term), where you have the opportunity to activate its effect during your Standby Phase at any time you wish, but then I started thinking about it, and it seemed like a Trigger Effect too, but from what I've seen, I'd have to say it's an activated effect. For one thing, one of the UDE rulings says: "If 'Sinister Serpent' is destroyed as a result of battle with 'Dark Ruler Ha Des' or 'Dark Balter the Terrible' you cannot activate its effect and return it to your hand during your next Standby Phase, or any subsequent Standby Phase." This infers that you activate its effect, but I thought it could be a case of bad wording. Another ruling states: "If your 'Sinister Serpent' is on the field and is destroyed during your Standby Phase, you may return it to your hand during that same Standby Phase." Of course, you could argue against that by saying that when it returns to your hand and goes back to the Graveyard, it is treated as a new Sinister Serpent, which makes perfect sense. Still unsure, I went to the Advanced Rulings Research Journal, and one of the researched rulings for "Sinister Serpent" is as follows: "The effect of 'Sinister Serpent' may be used multiple times during the same Standby Phase." That one is pretty direct. If you activate the effect, and it's negated, you should be able to activate it again.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Raijinili said:
Well, I still don't see what ruling shows it can't be a simple cost effect.

Note also that Spirit Ryu is a cost effect.  A simple cost effect.
Click to expand...
I don't see how Spirit Ryu has anything to do with Sinister Serpent, as that effect specifies a discard cost, and when you can activate it.

It is not a trigger, because it does not automatically trigger when you declare an attack with Spirit Ryu, like any other Spell Speed 1, you have the option to activate it if you want, or any other effect for that matter.

Conversely, Sinister Serpent will always trigger during your Standby if it exists in the graveyard, and ask you if you want to return it, which is precisely why it is a trigger. It is optional because you can choose not to, but based on its automatic nature, it is a trigger rather than cost effect.

There is a fine line between regular activated effects and optional triggers, the one main difference being that triggers will always attempt to auto activate, in the case of optionals, you have a choice, but the event/condition must still have caused the activation.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I have some question:

1) You says Sinister Serpent will return to the owner's hand if it is in the graveyard and, if Divine Wrath negates its effect, it will return the same during the same standby phase. But why Divine Wrath can negate only once Sinister Serpent's effect and Dark Rules stops its effect as long it stays in the graveyard?

2) I lost Vampire Lord's traces in this discussion: can Divine Wrath negate his effect? I'm referring to both effects.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Madma said:
I have some question:

1) You says Sinister Serpent will return to the owner's hand if it is in the graveyard and, if Divine Wrath negates its effect, it will return the same during the same standby phase. But why Divine Wrath can negate only once Sinister Serpent's effect and Dark Rules stops its effect as long it stays in the graveyard?
Click to expand...

"Dark Ruler Ha Des"'s effect of negating effects of monsters it destroys is considered a "permanent" thing (unless that monster is brought out of the graveyard and later then returns to it). "Divine Wrath"'s effect only negates the activation of that effect for that moment.

2) I lost Vampire Lord's traces in this discussion: can Divine Wrath negate his effect? I'm referring to both effects.
Click to expand...

Since both effects would be considered trigger effects, yes it would. Moreso, with the second effect (the part about returning to the field), if you use it then, the window for V-Lord to return has passed and he stays in the graveyard (since you technically can't "destroy" something that's already in the graveyard. In that instance his effect is merely negated.)

- A
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Someone told me - well it was actually the RULEBOOK - that if an effect has multiple triggers, it's called a multi-trigger effect.
At least for me, this ruling always made a LOT OF SENSE... ;)

Sinister:

1st Trigger: it's in your Graveyard
2nd Trigger: it's your Standby Phase
3rd Trigger: Your Decision -> you WANT TO take it back to your hand

Spirit Ryu

1st Trigger: it's involved in an attack
2nd Trigger: Your Decision -> you discard a Dragon from your hand to power it up

same with Lily

1st Trigger: it's involved in an attack
2nd Trigger: Your Decision -> pay 2000 LP's to power it up...

and so on ... and so on...

This easy to understand question (is there MORE THAN ONE trigger) works for almost ALL monsters out there... and you can see which Spell Speed your Effect Monsters' effect has! :wink:

The (IMO strange) Judge-List ruling tells us that you can activate a Cost Effect ONLY during your own Main Phase, so Sinister Serpent's definitely NO Cost Effect Monster or am I missing something???

soul
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
IFL is multi because her effects can activate during both players turn? is that right D_X, i dont really know if that is the reason.

for Devine wrath the text on it is "Negate the activation and the effect"

so wouldnt that 1. negate the activation of Sinister Serpents effect and 2. its effect period. like Dark ruler ha des does?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
1) "Injection Fairy Lily" - Yes, her effect is considered "Multi-Trigger" because it can be activated in either turn.

2) "Sinister Serpent" - At this point, I think we need to see what Kevin and the crew has to say about this.

3) If everyone looks, the ruling has been changed for "Divine Wrath" in that it can no longer be chained to monsters like "Element Magician" (and "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning") when they attack twice as a result of destroying 1 monster in battle. So now we have a new debate as to this.

- Andrew
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
i wonder why they do that rulnig?

unlike one of element saurus's effect which are continous cause the increase stay aslong as a fire is out on the field so continously Element saurus is looking for Firetype on the field.

but BLS and Element Magician (only when the specific type is on the field) can attack again during the same turn WHEN and only when they get to destroy a monster.

not once have i seen a BLS attack directly 2 times back to back cause its impossible the double attack effect only activates when the monster beats up another monster.

so wouldnt that be considered a trigger effect and not continous?
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
densetsu_x said:
3) If everyone looks, the ruling has been changed for "Divine Wrath" in that it can no longer be chained to monsters like "Element Magician" (and "Black Luster Soldier - Envoy of the Beginning") when they attack twice as a result of destroying 1 monster in battle.  So now we have a new debate as to this.
Click to expand...

Those effects are treated as continous effects if I am not mistaken. They have a trigger to them but are treated like any other monster that can attack twice.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
if dark ruler ha des destroy a sinister serpent , the "return efc"t is negated even after dark ruler ha des leaves the field as stated in old netreps files

why divine wrath that also negate efcts is not permanent?


woltarr
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top